HS2 goes ahead

[Mickey]

Deleted

[Coronach]

Modern England is famous for finding 100 excuses not to do something before finding one good reason to do it.
As for the cost aspect. Perhaps we should think twice about bankrolling nuclear powers with space programmes and maintaining the pretence that the country is a global power.
Like the song said; "...there's no future when England's dreaming..."

Dave.

[kudu]

We shouldn't forget the long timescale of this project. I can't help thinking this is a possible solution to today's problem, but not necessarily tomorrow's. More thought should be given to the scenario in a few decades' time.

For instance, what will the cost of energy be? There's a strong likelihood it will be dearer (in real terms) than today. High speeds consume far more energy than lower speeds.

This makes HS2 even less relevant as a solution to today's capacity problems.

Personally I think these times of austerity are just the occasion for investing in our future, including rail, but not HS2. Above all, we should be investing in people - in education and in schemes like Sure Start.

But that's for another thread, if not another forum.

Kudu

[Ferrybridge Flyer]

Just a thought fellas-but if HS2 gets finished in it's full form,who's for TORNADO going for a 100mph run??

[60800]

That would be a good idea

[PGBerrie]

Investing in railways is in vogue in Europe, so welcome to the club (sorry David!). If you're not sure of the benefits and the time scale, take a look at Rail 2000 and the NEAT projects, which were voted in by referendum as early as 1987! http://www.swissworld.org/en/switzerlan ... rail_2000/. Here it's not just the high speed traffic but the whole infrastructure - and part of the plan was to take the goods traffic over the alps, which is predicted to double over the next ten years, from the road to rail, i.e. goods trains too.

So if there are plans for a high speed route from London to Birmingham, why not? Transpennine electrification even better! Can only help the economy. The better the service, the more people travel by rail, and the less they use their cars.

Peter

PS: Was electrification of the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds route on the cards when the Woodhead route was being built? I've often wondered why there are catenary posts on/near the viaduct just west of Stalybridge (A627).

[Autocar Publicity]

Autocar: I thought the Transpennine electrification got the go-ahead a month or so ago.

There's been so much political horsetrading and bull * that I've lost track of some of what's been 'agreed' and what hasn't. When integrity and promises are negotiable, it becomes difficult to distinguish between proposals and plans.

We shouldn't forget the long timescale of this project. I can't help thinking this is a possible solution to today's problem, but not necessarily tomorrow's. More thought should be given to the scenario in a few decades' time.

Indeed. Crystal balls are frequently requested items for both my business and many others. But some thought (by railway management) would not go amiss. If they calculate that there is a sufficient market for HS trains (and I have my doubts), I'd consider Mag-lev trains for a brand new 'network' of HS lines, London - Cardiff; London - Birmingham, Manchester, Carlisle, Edinburgh; London - Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. Some more thought for passenger comfort and facilities on 'ordinary' trains would go a long way to compensating for 'unreduced' journey times. It won't happen though. Politicians do not have the moral courage to take the tough decisions needed to avoid serious crises in the next few decades, otherwise the world would already look very different.


Edited for clarity 12-01-2012.

[Rlangham]

To quote a local 'MC' who styles himself as a rapping coal miner - 'Jimmy Saville called it the age of the train, since then it's been stuck with a zimmer frame'

I use rail a lot for travel as I don't currently drive so in my cases it's my only option, but I can't see the point in this when the current London-Birmingham service isn't exactly slow, personally i'd have thought priorities would be increased capacity and frequency if possible - I don't mind how long it takes to get there (well, within reason - that said i've never travelled long distance and, including changes, it been slower than a car journey, and usually faster) as long as I don't have to stand up!

[kudu]

If you calculate that there is a sufficient market for HS trains (and I have my doubts), I'd consider Mag-lev trains for a brand new 'network' of HS lines, London - Cardiff; London - Birmingham, Manchester, Carlisle, Edinburgh; London - Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh.

I was casting doubt on HS2 in terms of its energy consumption. But that pales into insignificance compared with maglev. You might as well give everyone a helicopter.

We have been warned. We can't pretend we didn't know. And don't blame it on the politicians if they reflect our refusal to face reality.

Kudu

[richard]

Yes maglev isn't very practical - rather like hypersonic transport aircraft. Although Birmingham was home to the world's first commercial maglev system - it has all been ripped up now, though.

A high speed network will compete with aircraft - perhaps that is where you should be making the energy comparisons, and not with slower rail services.

[Autocar Publicity]

I was casting doubt on HS2 in terms of its energy consumption. But that pales into insignificance compared with maglev. You might as well give everyone a helicopter.

We have been warned. We can't pretend we didn't know. And don't blame it on the politicians if they reflect our refusal to face reality.kudu

Slight misunderstanding above, I was not quibbling with your reasoning and I would certainly agree that energy consumption (both for construction and operation) is a key factor in any decision. Energy is likely to become a more sensitive and important issue in future years, particularly as a lot of the stuff is required to sustain the way of life we are accustomed to. I have several major faults I find with politicians and a failure to plan ahead for this country's energy needs is one of them. My point about Mag-Lev was that if you are going to spend a lot of money on a HS line(s), you might as well make it a mid 21st century line rather than a 20th century one. Personally, I think Britain is too small for HS lines (of any type) to have much effect. As Richard suggests, if they could compete with aircraft, their costs might be worth it. (However you define this...)

[Blink Bonny]

Yes maglev isn't very practical - rather like hypersonic transport aircraft. Although Birmingham was home to the world's first commercial maglev system - it has all been ripped up now, though.

Ay up!

Sorry, Richard, but the Maglev is still up and running between the Airpor and the NEC. At least, it was just before Chringle!

[richard]

It has been replaced with a cable hauled system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirRail_Link

Airports around the world love tiny "monorails" but of course most are pneumatic-tyred affairs.

[Mickey]

Deleted

[60800]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AirRail_Link

I think I'd rather ride a pacer at 50mph along the enitre length of the ECMl than ride that thing.
Still, the economy calls and not everyone can have a 'disney' monorail; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disne ... ail_System