North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Wasn't another Zeppelin also shot down and crashed only a few miles away at Potters Bar?
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Regarding Zeppelins in WW1 (another of my pet interests - William Leefe Robinson VC, who shot down SL11, which technically wasn't a Zeppelin but a Schutte-Lanz wooden framed airship, is a hero of mine)
SL11 was the Cuffley 'Zepp' - the crews were originally intered at Potters Bar cemetery but then moved to Cannock Chase
L31 was shot down by 2nd Lieutenant Wulstan Tempest and crashed near Potters Bar - captaining L31 was Kapitanleutnant Heinrich Mathy, the leader of the Zeppelin crews and easily the most experienced member of any Zeppelin crew - there's a really good article on him and L31 here, which includes a photo showing the dent in the ground he left when he decided to jump from the burning Zeppelin rather than burn - http://www.hellfirecorner.co.uk/potters ... ersbar.htm
SL11 was the Cuffley 'Zepp' - the crews were originally intered at Potters Bar cemetery but then moved to Cannock Chase
L31 was shot down by 2nd Lieutenant Wulstan Tempest and crashed near Potters Bar - captaining L31 was Kapitanleutnant Heinrich Mathy, the leader of the Zeppelin crews and easily the most experienced member of any Zeppelin crew - there's a really good article on him and L31 here, which includes a photo showing the dent in the ground he left when he decided to jump from the burning Zeppelin rather than burn - http://www.hellfirecorner.co.uk/potters ... ersbar.htm
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/
Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/
Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Good posts Gentlemen.
From early on in the war. It seems the Germans decided to use hit and run tactics on the East Coast.
They originally thought the British Fleet would launch a blockade off the German coast, but this never happened.
The Grand Fleet was stationed at Scapa Flow. Away from potential German minefields and submarines.
After the bombardment of the north east towns, there was public out -cry as to why these towns were allowed so easily to be shelled.
Whitby also got shelled during the 1914 raid. With some shells i am told landing a couple miles in land near Ruswarp Bank.
Anyone interested in reading more i would recommend a book called "Guns of the NorthEast". It has a good account of the 1914 bombardment.
FYI One of the first German aircraft to be shot down in WW2. Happened just outside Whitby on a main road. Near to where the Sleights/Teesside roundabout is, above the Stables restaurant.
By a pilot called Peter Townsend who later became tangled up with Princess Margaret.
From early on in the war. It seems the Germans decided to use hit and run tactics on the East Coast.
They originally thought the British Fleet would launch a blockade off the German coast, but this never happened.
The Grand Fleet was stationed at Scapa Flow. Away from potential German minefields and submarines.
After the bombardment of the north east towns, there was public out -cry as to why these towns were allowed so easily to be shelled.
Whitby also got shelled during the 1914 raid. With some shells i am told landing a couple miles in land near Ruswarp Bank.
Anyone interested in reading more i would recommend a book called "Guns of the NorthEast". It has a good account of the 1914 bombardment.
FYI One of the first German aircraft to be shot down in WW2. Happened just outside Whitby on a main road. Near to where the Sleights/Teesside roundabout is, above the Stables restaurant.
By a pilot called Peter Townsend who later became tangled up with Princess Margaret.
cheers
robert
robert
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
It's an aspect of THE GREAT WAR or WW1 that not many people know about the naval war in the north sea between the British Grand Fleet and the German High Seas Fleet most people have heard about the land battles like the Somme & Paschendale.
I've been reading about it the sea war on & off for the last 10 years and it's a very interesting subject when you get into it. The BIG naval engagement during the Great War at sea was JUTLAND May 31st-June 1st 1916 were we lost x3 battleships sunk in a single afternoon which prompted the comment-
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today??"
I've been reading about it the sea war on & off for the last 10 years and it's a very interesting subject when you get into it. The BIG naval engagement during the Great War at sea was JUTLAND May 31st-June 1st 1916 were we lost x3 battleships sunk in a single afternoon which prompted the comment-
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today??"
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
There were also naval actions early in the war. From the South Atlantic to the Med , which often get ignored too.
Im currently reading "Jutland 1916" by Nigel Steel and Peter Hart. It was reasonably priced, bought from a cheap bookshop last year.
It makes for an interesting read. Jellicoe as commander of the Grand Fleet was very reluctant to risk the dreadnoughts. In a major clash with the German fleet at there time of choosing.
He feared German submarines and minefields would decimate what advantages his fleet had in numbers.
The Germans has spent a huge fortune on developing a surface fleet that was sitting idle in port. But submarine warfare was seen as the way forward. But risked upsetting the neutral commercial shipping countries.
Taking this pragmatic approach helped alienate and eventually bring the US into the war it is argued.
Regarding Jutland. The Brits having cracked the German naval intelligence codes were at sea even before the Germans were !
The Germans learned from lessons during the Battle of Dogger Bank. To improve anti-flash and other safety measures.
Whereas the British fleet became hell bent on improving rate of fire. This had dire consequences a Jutland. Shells and explosives were left as close as they could be in passage-ways for quick dispensing to the guns.
Beatty tried to signal the 5th battle squadron to remain in contact with him and move in step with him. This failed as the ships he was supposed to be contacting did not get his instructions at a critical time.
The Germans opened fire first even though the Brits had the advantage of range. When the British fired they did not engage one German ship. Which was given a clear run to shell back at will.
Why the signals were never understood between ships and the loss of advantage with range remains a contentious issue, even today. Some say there was smoke from the ships that affected how range was determined and how signal were read in the British Fleet.
That is as far as i have read so far.
What i have read of note is that the Germans planned to use a Zeppelin as air cover. Plus the Brits an aircraft. Technology was there, but both sides failed to see the significance of it.
Was Jutland a German or British victory. Certainly the reliance upon things to work as and when comes to mind in British minds.
You can argue Britain remained in control of the seas and slowly starved Germany into submission with a blockade. Or Germany reckoned its surface fleet was still a bargaining force come war or peace if needs be.
Finally i think, one of the ships from the German High Seas fleet was taken into Whitby Harbour, Prior to being sailed to Scapa Flow where it scuttled itself.
Im currently reading "Jutland 1916" by Nigel Steel and Peter Hart. It was reasonably priced, bought from a cheap bookshop last year.
It makes for an interesting read. Jellicoe as commander of the Grand Fleet was very reluctant to risk the dreadnoughts. In a major clash with the German fleet at there time of choosing.
He feared German submarines and minefields would decimate what advantages his fleet had in numbers.
The Germans has spent a huge fortune on developing a surface fleet that was sitting idle in port. But submarine warfare was seen as the way forward. But risked upsetting the neutral commercial shipping countries.
Taking this pragmatic approach helped alienate and eventually bring the US into the war it is argued.
Regarding Jutland. The Brits having cracked the German naval intelligence codes were at sea even before the Germans were !
The Germans learned from lessons during the Battle of Dogger Bank. To improve anti-flash and other safety measures.
Whereas the British fleet became hell bent on improving rate of fire. This had dire consequences a Jutland. Shells and explosives were left as close as they could be in passage-ways for quick dispensing to the guns.
Beatty tried to signal the 5th battle squadron to remain in contact with him and move in step with him. This failed as the ships he was supposed to be contacting did not get his instructions at a critical time.
The Germans opened fire first even though the Brits had the advantage of range. When the British fired they did not engage one German ship. Which was given a clear run to shell back at will.
Why the signals were never understood between ships and the loss of advantage with range remains a contentious issue, even today. Some say there was smoke from the ships that affected how range was determined and how signal were read in the British Fleet.
That is as far as i have read so far.
What i have read of note is that the Germans planned to use a Zeppelin as air cover. Plus the Brits an aircraft. Technology was there, but both sides failed to see the significance of it.
Was Jutland a German or British victory. Certainly the reliance upon things to work as and when comes to mind in British minds.
You can argue Britain remained in control of the seas and slowly starved Germany into submission with a blockade. Or Germany reckoned its surface fleet was still a bargaining force come war or peace if needs be.
Finally i think, one of the ships from the German High Seas fleet was taken into Whitby Harbour, Prior to being sailed to Scapa Flow where it scuttled itself.
cheers
robert
robert
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Yes you have been doing some reading.
When you stop and think about it you had British 'modern warships' being manoeuvred in the heat of battle in the same way that warships were communicated to in Lord Nelson's time by a sailor (signalman) with x2 flags sending 'battle orders' to other ships sometimes several miles away and also having to read other ships flag-signals as well sometimes in 'heavy seas' which would have been fairly difficult to do at the best of times?. Although 'wireless' was available on these warships i believe it was mainly used as a secondary form of communication at that time.
It's an interesting episode in the Great War the naval battles in the north sea and when i've had enough of railways i usually 'dig out' my books on this subject.
When you stop and think about it you had British 'modern warships' being manoeuvred in the heat of battle in the same way that warships were communicated to in Lord Nelson's time by a sailor (signalman) with x2 flags sending 'battle orders' to other ships sometimes several miles away and also having to read other ships flag-signals as well sometimes in 'heavy seas' which would have been fairly difficult to do at the best of times?. Although 'wireless' was available on these warships i believe it was mainly used as a secondary form of communication at that time.
It's an interesting episode in the Great War the naval battles in the north sea and when i've had enough of railways i usually 'dig out' my books on this subject.
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
I think Churchill once said something along the lines regarding Jellicoe " The only man who can lose the war in an afternoon"
Regarding the Great War , i think Backtrack the other year did an article about the coal trains from South Wales to Scotland for the Grand Fleet.
The railways were often over looked in the logistics they provided for both world wars, with railwaymen working home and abroad.
Regarding the Great War , i think Backtrack the other year did an article about the coal trains from South Wales to Scotland for the Grand Fleet.
The railways were often over looked in the logistics they provided for both world wars, with railwaymen working home and abroad.
cheers
robert
robert
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Yes i believe that these coal trains were known by some railwaymen as 'Jellicoe specials'.woberty wrote:Regarding the Great War, i think Backtrack the other year did an article about the coal trains from South Wales to Scotland for the Grand Fleet.
I read that they were referred to by that name when i was reading about the railway accident at QUINTINSHILL in May 1915.
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Ay up!
Having said all that, Churchill was in charge at the Admiralty at the time most of the ships were designed. He ordered that economies had to be made (sound familiar?) that resulted in the protective arched internal armour being deleted from the cruisers and the destroyers being built more or less unarmoured. This, plus shell overloading, said to be a consequence of insufficient magazine spaces made the smaller ships very vulnerable to plunging fire.
Although the Germans lost more capital ships in Jutland, the British lost more cruisers and destroyers and men in the battle than the Germans did. So who did win? The battle - probably Germany although mindsets at that time were on capital ships so in the mind, Germany lost.
The result of the design alterations was that Churchill resigned and joined up as a private soldier where he was found to be a very good shot. Opposite were a Bavarian regiment, including a certain Corporal A Hitler. Did Churchill fire the shot that wounded Hitler in the throat, giving rise to pioneering reconstructive surgery on Hitler's larynx that left him with a voice that resonated at a frequency above that of a normal human? We'll never know.
Having said all that, Churchill was in charge at the Admiralty at the time most of the ships were designed. He ordered that economies had to be made (sound familiar?) that resulted in the protective arched internal armour being deleted from the cruisers and the destroyers being built more or less unarmoured. This, plus shell overloading, said to be a consequence of insufficient magazine spaces made the smaller ships very vulnerable to plunging fire.
Although the Germans lost more capital ships in Jutland, the British lost more cruisers and destroyers and men in the battle than the Germans did. So who did win? The battle - probably Germany although mindsets at that time were on capital ships so in the mind, Germany lost.
The result of the design alterations was that Churchill resigned and joined up as a private soldier where he was found to be a very good shot. Opposite were a Bavarian regiment, including a certain Corporal A Hitler. Did Churchill fire the shot that wounded Hitler in the throat, giving rise to pioneering reconstructive surgery on Hitler's larynx that left him with a voice that resonated at a frequency above that of a normal human? We'll never know.
If I ain't here, I'm in Bilston, scoffing decent chips at last!!!!
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
It wasn't known at the time but many (but not all) British H.E.(High Explosive) gun shells 'failed to explode' on impact with the German ship this wasn't known until after the conflict.
The trade off-
German battleships were slightly 'wider' and were built with thicker armour but were slightly slower.
British battleships were 'sleeker' and were built with thinner armour (less weight for greater speed) but were slightly faster.
The main ships lost at the battle of JUTLAND were-
British x3 Battle cruisers blown to pieces & sunk by German gunfire.
British x3 Cruisers sunk.
British x7 Destroyers sunk.
Germans x1 Battle cruiser eventually sunk by gunfire on the run home after all the crew was taken off.
Germans x1 pre-Dreadnought blown to pieces by a 'mystery explosion' possibly a mine?.
Germans x4 Light Cruisers sunk.
The German's won the battle of Jutland but the British ultimately won the war because the German High Seas Fleet never came out to fight again in the north sea and remained in port for the rest of the war.
The trade off-
German battleships were slightly 'wider' and were built with thicker armour but were slightly slower.
British battleships were 'sleeker' and were built with thinner armour (less weight for greater speed) but were slightly faster.
The main ships lost at the battle of JUTLAND were-
British x3 Battle cruisers blown to pieces & sunk by German gunfire.
British x3 Cruisers sunk.
British x7 Destroyers sunk.
Germans x1 Battle cruiser eventually sunk by gunfire on the run home after all the crew was taken off.
Germans x1 pre-Dreadnought blown to pieces by a 'mystery explosion' possibly a mine?.
Germans x4 Light Cruisers sunk.
The German's won the battle of Jutland but the British ultimately won the war because the German High Seas Fleet never came out to fight again in the north sea and remained in port for the rest of the war.
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
HMS Hood a amended design after Jutland still suffered a similar fare at the hands of Bismark in WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hood_%2851%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hood_%2851%29
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
By god chaps , you certainly know your naval history as well everything LNER.
When the dreadnoughts were introduced they outclassed every other ship in theory. The trouble was the Germans were starting from an equal footing when building these ships. I stand corrected but the German battlecruisers were better ships per class than the Royal Navy ones.
I always thought Churchill had to be moved away from the Admiralty being blamed got the Gallipoli fiasco.
It was not just the naval ships that suffered from the shell problem. The quality and quantity of shells was a major problem until late in the War.
The Germans spent lavish amounts of money and materials on there capital ships. When pro rata in both wars could have produced more submarines.
It was said at the time of wooden men in steel ships whereas Nelson had the other way round. it's such a crying shame that we Brits seem to be some slap- dash reluctant to change our attitude to improving things .
How come we could produce great steam engines like an A4, yet in WW2 not produce a decent tank to take the panzers on, except the firefly perhaps.
Is it not a coincidence that the Germans helped build the railways in Russia pre WW1. The Russians mobilised far quicker than the Germans expected from their railheads. Though in late Aug 14, the Germans quickly switched forces using railways to defeat the Russians at the battles of masurian lakes and Tannenberg.
When the dreadnoughts were introduced they outclassed every other ship in theory. The trouble was the Germans were starting from an equal footing when building these ships. I stand corrected but the German battlecruisers were better ships per class than the Royal Navy ones.
I always thought Churchill had to be moved away from the Admiralty being blamed got the Gallipoli fiasco.
It was not just the naval ships that suffered from the shell problem. The quality and quantity of shells was a major problem until late in the War.
The Germans spent lavish amounts of money and materials on there capital ships. When pro rata in both wars could have produced more submarines.
It was said at the time of wooden men in steel ships whereas Nelson had the other way round. it's such a crying shame that we Brits seem to be some slap- dash reluctant to change our attitude to improving things .
How come we could produce great steam engines like an A4, yet in WW2 not produce a decent tank to take the panzers on, except the firefly perhaps.
Is it not a coincidence that the Germans helped build the railways in Russia pre WW1. The Russians mobilised far quicker than the Germans expected from their railheads. Though in late Aug 14, the Germans quickly switched forces using railways to defeat the Russians at the battles of masurian lakes and Tannenberg.
cheers
robert
robert
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
Went through there Yesterday.neilgow wrote:Speaking of this bombardment, on the outskirts of one of the villages on the Scarborough to Kirbymoorside road, set in concrete are one possibly two shells from this event. Or so said my grandfather. Passing through last year they where still there.
I regret, I cannot for the life of me remember the village name.
Rgds
NG.
Middleton, but only saw 1 at the Pickering end of the village.
Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
My great-grandparents on my mothers side were stewards of social club in Scarborough that was hit by a shell - my brother has the brass tip of the shell, recovered at the time.
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Re: North Eastern Railway and the Hartlepool Bombardment of 1914
woberty: Yes I thought Churchill resigned because he was ultimately responsible for the Dardenelles Offensive (aka Gallipoli) - both strategically and tactically flawed.
Richard
Richard
Richard Marsden
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