Whitby, Scarborough and Boulby

[woberty]

Pinzaccl55,
I do not know the exact date the crossing went in Ruswarp.
There used to be a signal box there too. I have some pictures somewhere of it just before it was demolished.
I have vague memories of a couple times been allowed inside it too. From a kid growing up the immediate area.

I apologise for deviating away from main thread of this topic.

Its a decent argument about the economic values of the proposed mine against Tourism.
The wide view of any industry opening is of value, no doubt.

When Fylingdales opened it was lauded by the powers that be that it would help bring income into Whitby. Has it in reality, made much difference to the shops in town.
Cynics would say the Goths probably spend more money than servicemen.

Certainly a new mine would bring employment to the town. But unless the people making the profit are going to help the local community, very little will change.
When i drive through North Yorks /East Cleveland today. I still see areas that have not had regeneration in decades. Yet Boulby has been open since early 70s .

Tourism is the same, unless you are in/directly employed in tourism within Whitby. You have to make your living somewhere else. Hence the convoy of traffic commuting to Teesside daily.
Day trippers also come in cars to Whitby, walk down the pier get a bag of chips at Trenches then leave en-masse over the moors all year round. Before the NYMR steamed daily through Bog Hall.
Today, Locals are concerned as much about whether Whitby hospital stays open, as anything else.

Perhaps in a bit sentimental about the area, but cold financial reality hold sway.
Like everyone here, id like to see massive investment in rail to move the potash.
I will be there to see the first trainload going across Ruswarp Bridge. Having seen Evening Star cross it when at school.
Its such a shame that politicians past and maybe present, are too narrow minded and lack the foresight to see the value of a decent rail network.

[PinzaC55]

Regarding the tourism thing I have the fortune/misfortune to live in York. 30+ years ago York had the Terry's and Rowntree's sweet factories, the British Sugar Factory, Carriageworks and Dringhouses Yard to name just a few industries off the top of my head. They are all gone except for what remains of Rowntrees as Nestle.
I commented to a friend recently that if tourism suddenly disappeared the York economy would collapse, and it is the same with Whitby. As I mentioned earlier the mine will likely need support industries, and assuming a proprtion of the miners are locals their increased wages may trickle down into the local economy, boosting it in both summer AND winter. Only an extreme pessimist could think it wouldn't have a positive effect.

[Coboman]

Problem I see especially with the mining jobs is nowerdays its very specialist and skilled work. The era of men underground hacking away with picks is long gone. Its unlikely that any local residents will have the necessary skills and qualifications to work in mining (if they do, they will have moved away to where there is mining work!). When new projects like this are muted, theres always big fanfares about jobs been created etc, but especially with speciallized work like this, the workforce will come with the mine. Yes we need the revenue that this raw product will create, but at the same time we need to be sensitive to the enviroment in a way that it doesn't effects delicate local economies like tourism etc. Although that disagreeable gent chose to ignore what I posted about the pipeline, it will cause massive disruption whilst it is constructed, far greater than most imagine and it will leave a hideous scar for a good few years. I hope these points are taken into consideration when decisions are made.
Jim

[PinzaC55]

Thats a good point about there not being skilled miners locally, but I suppose the skilled elements of the workforce will have to live somewhere and being as Whitby is one of the most attractive towns on the planet they would hardly turn it down.So the trickledown effect on the economy will be the same.

[grinkle]

From the Yorkshire Post
Looks like its a pipeline then.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at- ... _1_4089618

Is it just me or did I report a conversation with Sirius guys on 21/9 that said just this?

[60044]

Take Boulby as an example - how much has that stimulated its local economy? A steady and significant input no doubt, but not, I suggest, an outstanding one. Yes, a mine at Hawsker will have some effect, but the number of people it employs is going to be in the low 100s, and probably more effect will be felt at the processing plant in Teeside. Even the NYMR employs over 100 people, and its effect to the local community is going to be proportionately greater than a mine, because it attracts visitors to the area who spend whilst they are there. The people that work at the mine will spend locally, but most of what it requires in terms of equipment will come from specialist suppliers elsewhere (unless Whitby has become the hub of a mining equipment suppply industry without me noticing) and it isn't going to attract visitors, I'd have thought.

I'm sorry I seem to have upset some of you, but if matters such as these are to be discussed sensibly being a railway enthusiast does not absolve you from considering the real world! The loss of industries such as Rowntrees and the York Carriage Works is regrettable, but as far as I'm aware the city remains prosperous, because it has adapted and moved on.

I've no doubt that the EVL would be upgraded if the economic case was there and a pipeline was unfeasible, but whilst it would be environmentally friendly in keeping the roads free of traffic I fear it would be economically damaging for Whitby if it cost car parking space and NYMR services into Whitby. The biggest problem would be who would pay for the work.

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

When it was announced that the mines at Bleanau Ffestiniog were going to be re-worked there were great hopes for employment and for the upgrade of the Conwy Valley line, effectively a long siding. Neither came to pass.

Instead, workers were housed in a Portacabin Hilton and the ROAD was upgraded so that 38-tonne lorries could thunder along it.

Benefit to local community? Negligible. North Wales is one of the poorer areas in this fair kingdon of ours. The Hilton was supplied from England, the workers were bussed in and housed without any reference to any local businesses. I guess the road makes life easier for the caravenners.

Don't get yer hopes up, lads - the "benefit to the local community" bit may just be spin. It was in Bleanau!

[woberty]

Blink Bonny has hit the nail firmly on the head.
Sad but true, there is no sentiment in business towards the local community.

Look at the road traffic to the quarries at Redmire. Does it support work for the locals in Leyburn and Richmond.

[PinzaC55]

I used to volunteer for the Wensleydale Railway and I have to admit I wasn't aware there was any quarry activity at Redmire. What I do know is that the tank traffic from Catterick helped to keep the Redmire branch open until the WR took it over which must be, I am sure you would all agree, a good thing. Similarly I am no economist but I would imagine the economics of working the Esk Valley branch for 4 trains a day must be perilous, and that if it had 18 freight trains a day that would make it profitable?
As for Whitby simple common sense says that having a major new industry on your doorstep MUST stimulate the local economy as opposed to NOT having that industry?

[lnerjp]

The Esk Valley has 7 Trains a day, the NYMR is a TOC just the same as Northern and pays access charges just the same, and one of the main reasons the NYMR dosen't run any more Trains, is the branch dosen't have the capacity to run anymore with the current infastructure.

[grinkle]

Off-topic question; how effective are NYMR at policing tickets between Grosmont and Whity? The trains are often packed and I'd have thought free-riders (local or tourist) might find it quite easy to avoid having a ticket. Locals certainly wouldn't want to pay NYMR rates as opposed to 'BR' for this hop. (Indeed, where can one buy an NYMR ticket at Whitby station?)

(I'm in London so have no personal interest in this)

[Blink Bonny]

I used to volunteer for the Wensleydale Railway and I have to admit I wasn't aware there was any quarry activity at Redmire. What I do know is that the tank traffic from Catterick helped to keep the Redmire branch open until the WR took it over which must be, I am sure you would all agree, a good thing. Similarly I am no economist but I would imagine the economics of working the Esk Valley branch for 4 trains a day must be perilous, and that if it had 18 freight trains a day that would make it profitable?
As for Whitby simple common sense says that having a major new industry on your doorstep MUST stimulate the local economy as opposed to NOT having that industry?

Pinza, Bleanau was in EXACTLY the same posish. Promises made. Notwork Rail were going to be paid to install new passing loops at Betws (ruled ot because of the Museum premises there, but Colin was will to re-arrange his gianmt train sets) or at Dolwyddellan. No problems here but none were delivered. The road was upgraded instead which has left the last 3 miles or so from Fairy Glen to Betws an absolute death trap because thew lorries will neither slow down nor divert so anyone else can get through.

Sorry about this, but I have been made cynical over the years by the sheer number of public promises made that were never meant to be kept.

[PinzaC55]

I am also ultra cynical about public pledges - I remember Tony Bliar saying he would renationalise the railways - but in this particular case I don't see how they could make a suitable road to take the Potash out, thus making a mockery of the National Park idea. For the same reason a pipeline would involve
1) Planning Permission.
2) Negotiate building rights across every property it crosses.
3) Dig a trench, cross roads and rivers.
4) Build access points and booster stations to keep the stuff moving.
5) Make good everything you've done by landscaping etc.
6) Maintain it.
It would or will be an epic project, and if I had to say pipeline or road I would say road would be more sensible.

[mr B]

dig a bigger 'pipeline' fit it out with 2' gauge and bob's yer uncle

mr b

[lnerjp]

Off-topic question; how effective are NYMR at policing tickets between Grosmont and Whity? The trains are often packed and I'd have thought free-riders (local or tourist) might find it quite easy to avoid having a ticket. Locals certainly wouldn't want to pay NYMR rates as opposed to 'BR' for this hop. (Indeed, where can one buy an NYMR ticket at Whitby station?)

(I'm in London so have no personal interest in this)

Hi Grinkle

I was hoping that one of the other NYMR posters would take up the mantel for this one, however as no one has replied I will have a go. However I'm putting what I belive to be true without full knowledge, if any of my post is inacurate I'm open to correction.

The Ticket office in whitby and the car park is run by NYMR, you can buy NYMR and I think Northern tickets there. NYMR and Northern tickets used to be valid on any train however this is no longer the case.

I'm not sure how prices compare but I would'nt think their's a lot in it, but remmber our "privatised railway network" is subsadised to the sum of around 5 Billion, the NYMR recives no subsidy. The Locals from Grosmont & Goathland can travel for free on certain days.

As for fare dodging, I would think it would be more difficult on the Whitby stretch as there are more staff, due to restrictions on MK1 stock. You would have to be pretty low though, as you would in effect be stealing from a charity.

J.P.