Whitby, Scarborough and Boulby

[woberty]

I read the leading article in the Yorkshire Post the other day.
Money will talk when the decision comes to move the stuff out of he ground.
I appreciate that this forum is pro-rail, but any new jobs coming to that area of North Yorkshire is to be welcomed.

[PinzaC55]

I agree and I think the National Park's attitude to the mine is largely irrelevant except for trying to minimise environmental impact. We don't want to live in a museum or theme park.

[PinzaC55]

I'm all in favour of moving the stuff by rail, but one has to wonder if it would be feasible. The tonnages being talked about would seem likely to swamp the branch and make it very difficult for the current passenger service and the NYMR service to continue, which doesn't represent a major step forward to me. Yes, the Whitby-Grosmont section could be reinstated as double track, but the old single line formation to Battersby would present a major bottleneck, as would the need to reverse at Battersby. My imagination can stretch to upgrading of the existing infrastructure, but it baulks at converting the whole line to Battersby to double track and eliminating the need to reverse.

As for the pipeline and its feasibility, I feel that if the company is talking about it they must have done their research into the idea and be more technically informed than the majority of commenters on this forum!

The Northern Rail sevice on the branch comprises 4 trains a day which is hardly a major issue and , although I am sure we all love the NYMR dearly, this would be a far more lucrative traffic for the railways generally than the NYMR.
If it is decided to move it by pipeline I'd want to know that the pipeline isn't being subsided or paid for by taxpayers money and that also goes for the rail option.

[woberty]

That is a excellent point PinzacC55 regarding the area being turned into a theme park or museum.

If the proposed mine does not open, what will the long term impact be on the area. From an environmental and economic point of view.
Lets be realistic a lot of locals from Whitby and surrounding areas commute for work farther afield. Any investment is needed to keep local people in jobs.

Is it not ironic that the coming of the railways helped developed the area. With mining being a large employer in its day throughout Eskdale.
I think the mines were productive but transportation costs made them expensive to operate.

Today "Heartbeat" has come and gone. Whilst the NYMR certainly is a major player for the area.
The decision to run trains into Whitby has to be seen as a success.

If memory serves me right there are a few bridges between Ruswarp and Grosmont.
I think the line was double tracked. There used to be sidings for the cattle mart at Ruswarp years ago halfway between the railway bridge and Chain bridge crossing.

[PinzaC55]

That is a excellent point PinzacC55 regarding the area being turned into a theme park or museum.

If the proposed mine does not open, what will the long term impact be on the area. From an environmental and economic point of view.
Lets be realistic a lot of locals from Whitby and surrounding areas commute for work farther afield. Any investment is needed to keep local people in jobs.

Is it not ironic that the coming of the railways helped developed the area. With mining being a large employer in its day throughout Eskdale.
I think the mines were productive but transportation costs made them expensive to operate.

Today "Heartbeat" has come and gone. Whilst the NYMR certainly is a major player for the area.
The decision to run trains into Whitby has to be seen as a success.

If memory serves me right there are a few bridges between Ruswarp and Grosmont.
I think the line was double tracked. There used to be sidings for the cattle mart at Ruswarp years ago halfway between the railway bridge and Chain bridge crossing.

The NYMR running into Whitby is undoubtedly a "good thing" and a benefit to the area. However it is purely tourism in the sense that none of the passengers are making the journey other than for the ride and to see Whitby. Thus it could be here today and gone tomorrow. The mine is a genuine heavy industry of the sort Britain used to excel at and it is likely to be a long term industry in the same way Boulby is. So, if it was a matter of the NYMR or the Potash , which one should take precedence?
The line was double track from Whitby to Grosmont and there are no physical obstructions to reinstatement of double track except for (I think) the level crossing at Ruswarp which in any case is quite old now so would benefit from renewal.

[Coboman]

As for the pipeline and its feasibility, I feel that if the company is talking about it they must have done their research into the idea and be more technically informed than the majority of commenters on this forum!

What I have quoted is from pipe technology that I studied at university. That was 30 years ago mind you. Technology moves on. Either way its going to have a massive enviromental impact on the region when they build it, considering alot of it is considered ecologically fragile. A new large water main was installed local to me about 10 years ago, bare in mind that where I live has good transport links and is mainly suburban and farming, with very little woodland or eco sensitive areas, and its taken until now for the signs to have totally dissapeared.

[60044]

The NYMR running into Whitby is undoubtedly a "good thing" and a benefit to the area. However it is purely tourism in the sense that none of the passengers are making the journey other than for the ride and to see Whitby. Thus it could be here today and gone tomorrow. The mine is a genuine heavy industry of the sort Britain used to excel at and it is likely to be a long term industry in the same way Boulby is. So, if it was a matter of the NYMR or the Potash , which one should take precedence?

I'd suggest that tourism probably supports far more jobs in Whitby than the mine is likely to. With around a third of the NYMR's passengers opting to travel to or from Whitby, and the car parking problems in the town, I'd suggest that local traders would be taking a significant hit if the NYMR could no longer run there. This year saw the WarTime weekend extended to Whitby at their request, and becaue the event has now become too big for the Grosmont=Pickering railway. It's possible that other events such as the 60s music events may merge to everyone;s benefit.

Yes, there are potentially billions of pounds worth of potash beneath the ground, but I fear that only a tiny proortion of the proceeds will ever be seen by the local area and it will pay a high price in other ways. Even the jobs at the mine might be exaggerated. I'm reminded of an old Garfield cartoon:

We want motivated people, intelligent go-getting people, highly proficient people..................................fewer people.

Mining is a difficult, dirty and dangerous job and not one I'd recommend or wish on anyone. We used to excell at it because human life was not greatly valued at the time. I'd like to think that we've moved on from that, but clearly there re those who probably didn't work down mines but pine for those times!

[PinzaC55]

"I'd suggest that tourism probably supports far more jobs in Whitby than the mine is likely to."

You are free to suggest that but without figures to back it up, it is merely an assertion. It's unlikely that the mine will drive tourism out of Whitby so any jobs and revenue will be additional to the local economy and not subject to the vagaries of the weather or tourism patterns.

"I'd suggest that local traders would be taking a significant hit if the NYMR could no longer run there."

Again you are free to suggest that but as I said before the boost to the local economy will be year round, not seasonal or weekend.

"Yes, there are potentially billions of pounds worth of potash beneath the ground, but I fear that only a tiny proortion of the proceeds will ever be seen by the local area and it will pay a high price in other ways. Even the jobs at the mine might be exaggerated. I'm reminded of an old Garfield cartoon"

And on what do you base your fear? I suspect the tourism jobs in Whitby are mostly minimum wage; I also suspect the mining jobs will be highly paid and that the mine will require support industries which will be tempted to move to the area.
"Cartoons" are no basis to form a worldview or to run an economy.

"Mining is a difficult, dirty and dangerous job and not one I'd recommend or wish on anyone. We used to excell at it because human life was not greatly valued at the time. I'd like to think that we've moved on from that, but clearly there re those who probably didn't work down mines but pine for those times!"

It sure is and I wouldn't wish to work down a mine, but lots of people will. The mine will be built and either you will be right or I will be right.
Many people "pine" for the old days of the railways - when train drivers went home covered in soot with lungs full of fumes, when engines were lagged with Asbestos, when you didn't wear a Hi-Vi vest so you could be mown down by a speeding train - but those days are gone and we have rigorous Health & Safety regulations which the mine will need to obey.

[60044]

All any of us can do is make suggestions based on our opinions because we don't have the true data available, so your suggestions are no more valid - since when have been mining jobs of any description been well paid, for example?

I'd like the best of both words - for the mine to be a success and a benefit to the local community, but without the destruction of the Esk Valley line as we know it, but equally without recourse to road transport, so I hope that the pipeline is what comes to fruition - and that's all I'm going to say on the matter!

[Coboman]

All any of us can do is make suggestions based on our opinions because we don't have the true data available, so your suggestions are no more valid - since when have been mining jobs of any description been well paid, for example?

Ermm coalminers got paid better than school teachers in the early 80s..despite the popular things said about Maggie, thats the real reason theres hardly any now, cheaper to import.

[PinzaC55]

All any of us can do is make suggestions based on our opinions because we don't have the true data available, so your suggestions are no more valid - since when have been mining jobs of any description been well paid, for example?

I'd like the best of both words - for the mine to be a success and a benefit to the local community, but without the destruction of the Esk Valley line as we know it, but equally without recourse to road transport, so I hope that the pipeline is what comes to fruition - and that's all I'm going to say on the matter!

How do you quantify "destruction" of the Esk Valley line? The signalboxes , signals and oil lamps went years ago - I can just remember the oil lamps which went in 1976. If it was redoubled Whitby to Grosmont would that qualify as "destruction" and if so how? If the line was carrying 5 times the traffic how would that be a bad thing?
I'm sorry to have to labour this point but the Network Rail owned lines are NOT, and should not be, a museum. If a pretty signalbox can be replaced by a cheaper and more efficient system it HAS to go. The NYMR came under a lot of flak for the barriers at Levisham and the colour lights at Pickering but the case was unarguable so it was done.

[mr B]

if only this lot had used the line it would still be in use ...

mr b

[StoneRoad]

Does it really have to be a case of either potash or tourism ?

With modern signalling etc, providing the physical assets (bridges etc) are present - and up to the job - I see no reason why both can't use the route.

And by the way, far more jobs rely on tourism than you might expect.......not just the obvious like the caffs, B&Bs and the 'attractions' : there are a lot of shops and others concerns that rely on supporting the tourist trade......just study Whitby (as I have done) out of the main season to see the tourist footfall!

[PinzaC55]

if only this lot had used the line it would still be in use ...

True, but it might have had colour light signals, diesels, fluorescent lights and "shudders" Potash trains from Boulby! Far better that it was closed.

[Bryan]

From an earlier post a figure of 100,000 tonnes per week was estimated as the output.
This would mean 18,200 tonnes per day. based on 5 1/2 day working. (Usual working days of existing freight traffic)
Now what would the limit for train working over the branch?
How heavy would the trains have to be?
2000 tonnes of payload would mean over 9 trains each way per day.
More realistically a train of hoppers such as:- http://www.garethbayer.co.uk/wotw/album ... 360004.jpg
would probably be limited to about 1000 tonnes so that would make 18+ trains per day.
How many hoppers could be operated over the branch given run round limits and weight limits on the branch?
Now try and slot in the Northern Rail services, NYMR services and everything else working on the route between Teeside and Battersby.