Late LNER Carriage Liveries

[JASd17]

Mike,

Dates are important here. As is the age of the stock? Was, for instance, ex-GER stock treated differently - brown paint - to say ex-GNR teak finish? Then there is evidence of teak painted finishes on NER stock. Did each LNER Area have a different policy?

Confused,

John

[sawdust]

A slightly different topic that may help our knowledge of these matters.

Harris states that revarnishing of teak bodied coaches occurred every 3 years.

So a vehicle goes through the extensive varnishing program as specified from new. Every three years (I believe) it is flatted down and given a new varnish coat. At some point in the vehicle's life the varnish is fully stripped, stains bleached, and new varnish coats applied. Finally when the panels could not be economically treated and revarnished they received and overall coat of "teak" brown paint.

Am I right in this assumption? How often could a panel be top-coat revarnished before it has to be stripped back down and revarnished from bare wood? How many times did this occur before the coach was painted brown?

As an aside, if paint used by BR did not adhere to teak bodied vehicles, presumably the brown paint had the same problem. How often would it have been repainted?

Interesting question Mike. I don't know about historical practice but my experience suggests stripping back to bare wood after ten to fifteen years is desirable.

Sawdust.

[pete2hogs]

Ex GE stock I think was painted brown, and some continued so into BR days. For example, there is on p36 of 'Steam in East Anglia, a Colour Portfolio' (by RC Riley) coach E62445E in brown next to a maroon Gresley coach. The picture's dated 26 April 1958. I doubt it could have gone 10 years without a repaint although it does have some paint peeling off.

It was LNER policy to paint old coaches brown anyway when the expense of restoring the varnished finish was no longer justified, and Stratford never seemed to thow away old paint...

[MikeTrice]

Interesting question Mike. I don't know about historical practice but my experience suggests stripping back to bare wood after ten to fifteen years is desirable.
Sawdust.

How often do you aim to do a fresh top coat? Am I right that this is typically a flat down then top coat? Would it have resulted in an update to the V date on the solebar? Presumably the full strip back would involve putting on new transfers as well. Sorry to bombard you with these, but I know you have practical knowledge so to speak.

[sawdust]

Interesting question Mike. I don't know about historical practice but my experience suggests stripping back to bare wood after ten to fifteen years is desirable.
Sawdust.

How often do you aim to do a fresh top coat? Am I right that this is typically a flat down then top coat? Would it have resulted in an update to the V date on the solebar? Presumably the full strip back would involve putting on new transfers as well. Sorry to bombard you with these, but I know you have practical knowledge so to speak.

That is down to the NYMR. It isn't just a case of refreshing the finish. But more about dealing with areas of blown varnish and to be honest I think this will have always been the case.

Sawdust.

[robertcwp]

What would have been the final carriages of LNER design to have been outshopped new in LNER livery? The mock teak livery carried on being applied to new stock until 1949, during which year crimson/cream (or crimson for non-gangwayed stock and vans) became standard.

The Harris LNER Carriages book has a photo of RF E1657 new in mock teak with BR Gill Sans lettering. This vehicle did not enter traffic until period 7 of 1949 (late June/July) according to Bishop, so might have been one of the last to carry the livery from new. Crimson and cream was already appearing by that time, at least on overhauled stock (the WR at Swindon outshopping the Cornish Riviera sets in that livery in May 1949).

[MikeTrice]

Well spotted. Usually around that period the LNER painted on various dates on the solebars BO: Brake Overhaul; L: Lifted and V: Varnished. These are often the same date when the vehicles are first outshopped (although practically I doubt they could have been). The photo of E1657 interestingly only has a BO date present which reads 28/5/49.

[kimballthurlow]

Hi,
What about the plum and spilt milk experiment of 1948? Does anyone here know about it?

I read about this a long time ago, and I don't remember the source, but I believe it was applied to an excursion set of the LNER, perhaps the green and cream sets. And something tells me an East Anglian express to Norwich and Cromer. It used similar colouring to that perpetuated on the LNWR prior to 1923, but applied in similar fashion to the later crimson and cream.

Interestingly, I have a child's railway book published 1949, that apparently shows this scheme in hand rendered pictures. I understand that book colouring is not definitive, but interesting nonetheless.

regards
Kimball

[robertcwp]

Hi,
What about the plum and spilt milk experiment of 1948? Does anyone here know about it?

I read about this a long time ago, and I don't remember the source, but I believe it was applied to an excursion set of the LNER, perhaps the green and cream sets. And something tells me an East Anglian express to Norwich and Cromer. It used similar colouring to that perpetuated on the LNWR prior to 1923, but applied in similar fashion to the later crimson and cream.

Interestingly, I have a child's railway book published 1949, that apparently shows this scheme in hand rendered pictures. I understand that book colouring is not definitive, but interesting nonetheless.

regards
Kimball

Several sets of LNER design stock carried 1948 experimental liveries. One was a simplified version of the old LNWR livery, variously referred to as lake and white, plum and spilt milk or plum and split milk (split milk being an old term for what we would now called skimmed milk, I believe). The other was 'improved' chocolate and cream, similar to GWR livery but with different lining and a slightly more reddish brown according to contemporary reports. The style used for chocolate and cream was similar to that adopted for what became the standard livery of crimson and cream.

Two East Coast sets carried these liveries (one set each) and these normally worked the 1. 0 pm KX-Edinburgh and 1.45 pm return.

The GE section had a lake and white set on the 12.30 pm Liverpool St-Norwich and 6.25 pm return, and a chocolate and cream set on the 8. 0 am Yarmouth-Liverpool St and 3.44 pm return.

There was a lake and white set on the 8.40 am Leeds City-Glasgow Queen Street and 4. 0 pm return.

Though the sets were later split up, some vehicles retained their experimental liveries well into the 1950s.

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

One point to make here is that on the "experimental" liveries the cream paint reached the cantrail on all sets. When carmine and cream was introduced, in general a red band was introduced above the windows except on Gresley stock which was cream to the gutter. Apparently the red band made them look over-fussy plus the LNERs preference for high-set windows in brake coaches spoiled the look.

Thompson stock was treated both ways. The "Scotsman" set had a red band above the windows with the full brakes having a deeper band than the coaches. Ordinary stock, in the main, didn't and was cream to the gutter.

This does mean that it is easy to pick out the experimental liveries on black and white pictures, except on the Eastern! Ho hum.....

[65447]

Ex GE stock I think was painted brown, and some continued so into BR days. For example, there is on p36 of 'Steam in East Anglia, a Colour Portfolio' (by RC Riley) coach E62445E in brown next to a maroon Gresley coach. The picture's dated 26 April 1958. I doubt it could have gone 10 years without a repaint although it does have some paint peeling off.

It was LNER policy to paint old coaches brown anyway when the expense of restoring the varnished finish was no longer justified, and Stratford never seemed to thow away old paint...

In general that held true, but the former GE Restaurant Cars were painted to current standards, those that survived ending up in lined Maroon.

There are two photographs of former GE carriages on p45 of R C Riley's The Colour of Steam Vol. 9, The Great Eastern Line, Atlantic 1990; the upper example is clearly still in the brown in 1958, whereas that in the lower photograph appears to be in grubby Crimson in 1957, despite the caption. What do others think?

[JASd17]

A corridor vehicle in unlined crimson! I am guessing the colouring on the ends is rust/brake dust not crimson paint?

John

[robertcwp]

Ay up!

One point to make here is that on the "experimental" liveries the cream paint reached the cantrail on all sets. When carmine and cream was introduced, in general a red band was introduced above the windows except on Gresley stock which was cream to the gutter. Apparently the red band made them look over-fussy plus the LNERs preference for high-set windows in brake coaches spoiled the look.

Thompson stock was treated both ways. The "Scotsman" set had a red band above the windows with the full brakes having a deeper band than the coaches. Ordinary stock, in the main, didn't and was cream to the gutter.

This does mean that it is easy to pick out the experimental liveries on black and white pictures, except on the Eastern! Ho hum.....

At least on some other regions' stock, this was not true of the experimental chocolate and cream - on ex-LMS stock there was a chocolate band above the windows. Difficult to tell for sure but there are photos of what appears to be the ECML chocolate/cream set with a dark band above the windows too, but the livery is unconfirmed as the only photos I know of are black and white. There is photographic and film evidence (including in colour) to confirm the livery style on ex-LMS stock. This includes photos published before crimson/cream was introduced, so there can be no confusion with crimson/cream. There is clearly a chocolate band above the windows.

On the lake and white sets the white extended up to the gutters but on ex-LMS stock there was lining above the windows.

[kimballthurlow]

Hi Robert,

Thank you for setting out some definitive stuff on the lake/white colour scheme.
Very interesting.

regards
Kimball

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Thanks for the info. I was passing on what I had been told by folks who were around at the time, remembering what they'd seen.