Diagram 354 Restaurant Firsts - workings

[robertcwp]

The post-war 'Thompson' restaurant firsts with kitchen seem to have been used mainly on GN Main Line and East Coast services from King's Cross. Notable workings included The Elizabethan and The Talisman.

Were any used regularly on the former GC London Extension or Great Eastern lines? I don't recall having seen photos of either.

[Green Nigel]

The Restaurant firsts were not allocated to regular GC workings. One of the post war pantry cars was used as part of the South Yorkshireman in later years. Pantry cars seem to have been popular on the GC's principal expresses, however this is probably more to do with the cascading of older stock rather then a preferance for the type. The pantry cars on the GC seemed to be operating as traditional third class opens with seats for dining.

[robertcwp]

The Restaurant firsts were not allocated to regular GC workings. One of the post war pantry cars was used as part of the South Yorkshireman in later years. Pantry cars seem to have been popular on the GC's principal expresses, however this is probably more to do with the cascading of older stock rather then a preferance for the type. The pantry cars on the GC seemed to be operating as traditional third class opens with seats for dining.

Thanks for your reply. I have seen photos showing the South Yorkshireman with a post-war pantry car. The Master Cutler had a Gresley pantry car in its formation for most of its existence. Also, at least some of the final batch of Gresley pantry cars (built during WW2 as open firsts) ran on the GC. One of the Steam on 35mm DVDs shows one in a formation at Leicester Central and the 1945 carriage workings show them in the Manchester-Marylebone sets (their unusual seating capacity of 38 identifying them).

The reason I asked about the Thompson Diag 354 was that I saw a model of one in a c1952 Master Cutler formation on the Shipley MRS layout Leicester South GC along with a post-war pantry car. Every photo I have seen of the Cutler, except those taken during the 1949 Tavern Car debacle, shows a Gresley RF.

[Green Nigel]

Well spotted, simple answer to that one, these things take time to build. Do you realise how many bricks there are in that flipping tavern car?.

[Green Nigel]

The reason I asked about the Thompson Diag 354 was that I saw a model of one in a c1952 Master Cutler formation on the Shipley MRS layout Leicester South GC alog with a post-war pantry car. Every photo I have seen of the Cutler, except those taken during the 1949 Tavern Car debacle, shows a Gresley RF.[/quote]

Actually it is the notorious 1949 formation just not finished yet. Seven coaches are complete with four still to build but we can only accommodate ten in the fiddle yard so number eleven is for completeness sake only. I was hopeing that if I left of the destination boards and headboard off and zoomed it past fast enough nobody would notice.

[robertcwp]

Actually it is the notorious 1949 formation just not finished yet. Seven coaches are complete with four still to build but we can only accommodate ten in the fiddle yard so number eleven is for completeness sake only. I was hopeing that if I left of the destination boards and headboard off and zoomed it past fast enough nobody would notice.

Caught out!

And here is the evidence:


And I thought - it's Leicester South GC - it must be prototypical!

Hope to see the notorious Tavern Cars in the set at a future exhibition.

More photos and comments are in this post: shipley-clubs-leicester-south-p49713.html#p49713

[Bill Bedford]

Well spotted, simple answer to that one, these things take time to build. Do you realise how many bricks there are in that flipping tavern car?.

None, they were all painted.

[robertcwp]

I don't recall ever having seen models of Tavern Cars in their original 1949 condition on any layout at an exhibition.

By the way, an article in Backtrack Volume 7 Number 1 (January-February 1993) by D W Winkworth recounted the extreme adverse reaction from first class passengers on the Master Cutler to the almost-windowless restaurant car in the tavern car pair. It makes an interesting read. There were even questions in Parliament, the Minister on the receiving end being future Prime Minister James Callaghan.

See: http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/comm ... ars-design

I put together some brief notes on the Tavern Cars on the ER a few months ago. Right click on the following link and select Save Target As to download:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32711444/Articl ... 6-4-11.pdf

[Green Nigel]

Well spotted, simple answer to that one, these things take time to build. Do you realise how many bricks there are in that flipping tavern car?.

None, they were all painted.

oops, I may have made a slight miscalculation with my choice of building materials.

[Green Nigel]

The Tavern car Dolphin was in terms of patronage and till receipts remarkable successful in the Master Cutler, more so then the traditional types employed up to that time. It was the flying Nissen hut that drew the flack from the trains regular clients.

The Cutler was a special train, a club car for business men comparable to the likes of the Yorkshire Pullman on the GN mainline, it's patrons were powerful people who held a lot of sway. An attempt was made to retain the tavern car and lose the nissen hut but this led to a rather convoluted formation, the ex LNER types not being compatible with the Tavern cars layout. The passengers seem to have liked the Tavern car and it certainly did a roaring trade but boycotted the Nissen hut. The operating department on the other hand were glad to see the back of it.

The concept of the Tavern car was not a bad one. The Newcastle Bournemouth service operated catering vehicles of a similar layout successfully for many years. It was the nature of the composite diner that was a fault the tavern cars themselves were an easy target due to their unusual appearance but its incompatibility with the ex LNER types was always against it.

[robertcwp]

The Tavern car Dolphin was in terms of patronage and till receipts remarkable successful in the Master Cutler, more so then the traditional types employed up to that time. It was the flying Nissen hut that drew the flack from the trains regular clients.

The Cutler was a special train, a club car for business men comparable to the likes of the Yorkshire Pullman on the GN mainline, it's patrons were powerful people who held a lot of sway. An attempt was made to retain the tavern car and lose the nissen hut but this led to a rather convoluted formation, the ex LNER types not being compatible with the Tavern cars layout. The passengers seem to have liked the Tavern car and it certainly did a roaring trade but boycotted the Nissen hut. The operating department on the other hand were glad to see the back of it.

The concept of the Tavern car was not a bad one. The Newcastle Bournemouth service operated catering vehicles of a similar layout successfully for many years. It was the nature of the composite diner that was a fault the tavern cars themselves were an easy target due to their unusual appearance but its incompatibility with the ex LNER types was always against it.

Page 215 in Named Trains on LNER Lines Part II (Yeadon, Book Law) shows the southbound Master Cutler at Wembley Park, Monday 19 September 1949, ie after the 'Nissen hut' (good description ) had been removed but still with the Tavern car, behind 61188 - approximate formation (Gresley end-door stock, crimson and cream except where stated):

BCK, FK, FK, FO, RTP (teak), RKB (Tavern), indistinct (teak), TK, TK, TK, TK or TO (indistinct, teak), BTK

The RTP may be one of the final batch built during World War II that ran as open firsts into the early BR years.

The BR Mark I RKB and RB owed much to the Tavern car concept and were very successful. I recall my father describing the RB in the Leeds Executive in the 1970s as being basically a travelling pub.

The Harwich-Liverpool train had one of the 1953 Gresley RKB conversions, which also had something in common with the Tavern cars, but I don't think the Cutler ever gained such a vehicle. There is however a published photo of Gresley RKB E1225E in the South Yorkshireman on 8 May 1954. That vehicle later moved to the GE and it (or a sister vehicle) can be seen in a Cromer-Liverpool Street train on 25/4/56 at plate 62 in the Middleton Press book 'Branch Lines Around Cromer'.

[Green Nigel]

From memory the formation was

from the south BCK FK FK FO RTP RKB CK TK TK TK extra TK BTK

The Tavern car was not designed to run with catering vehicles at its northern end because of the location of the bar. The kitchen is at the southern end of the carriage, adjacent to the composite diner. Having dispensed with the composite diner the ER had to provide like for like.

[robertcwp]

From memory the formation was

from the south BCK FK FK FO RTP RKB CK TK TK TK extra TK BTK

The Tavern car was not designed to run with catering vehicles at its northern end because of the location of the bar. The kitchen is at the southern end of the carriage, adjacent to the composite diner. Having dispensed with the composite diner the ER had to provide like for like.

Thanks - I had another look at the photo in the Yeadon book - it's a pity it's not a bigger photo as the teak vehicle behind the Tavern car is indistinct.

At Scaleforum I bought a photo of 60052 (in clean BR blue livery without a shedplate on the smokebox door) on the southbound Master Cutler. The leading vehicle is a crimson and cream Gresley end-door BCK and the second vehicle is a teak Gresley RTP, from the final batch built as open firsts (large figure 1s are evident in the windows). This is followed by a Gresley FK. Remaining vehicles are not identifiable or not visible.

[Green Nigel]

Sounds like a very interesting photo I would like to see that, seems like the operating department was in total confusion about where to put what, I bet the next vehicle was a dia 354 RF

[9E]

Veering off-topic a bit, but in view of earlier comments about Tavern cars, can anyone tell me what colours were used for the 'mortar' and the half-timbered effect of the Tavern cars. I've got a 2mm scale kit (plus Nissen hut!) which will one day be The White Horse for an early 1950 North Country Continental.

Thanks,

Simon