Majormagna wrote:I have a couple of questions; firstly, were ECJS coaches used on internal trains? (I.e. not travelling between NER, GNR etc. territories)
Would be interesting seeing it paired with the NER clerestory brake from Beamish, shame that doesn't have gangways.
Secondly, what are the plans for livery? I assume it will be outshopped in LNER livery, rather than... whatever livery it carried in the pre-grouping years.
That is a good question. Some ECJS carriages were passed into ownership of NER/GNR/NBR companies in later life so would have seen use on more local services.
As far as livery goes the plan is to put into ECJS livery with crests and lettered 'East Coast Dining Saloon Third Class'. It is likley that when 189 came into LNER ownership the lettering would have been simplified but we don't have any documentary evidence for this.
checking Ken Hoole's book, 189 had a 52ft 6in underframe, so why cut another one down???
surely much easier to get a 52ft 6 gresley underframe than undertake major surgery?
also remember, if it actually is 189, then it was built in Doncaster, and with a clerestory from new, the biggest thing though is that i ran on
Fox type bogies.
In our defence, the best reason I can think of off the top of my head is that there is no such thing as a Gresley 52'6" underframe!
Gresley 52'6" stock was built on 51ft underframes, with the extra 18" coming from the bowed wooden ends. Similarly, 61'6" stock was built on 60' underframes.
189 had flat ends and the length of the body was the same as the underframe.
actually the body on no doncaster built carriage before gresley was the same length as the underframe. there was an overlap.
the drawing in hoole shows that the buffer beams extend some distance beyond the body, but i cannot see the photo clearly enough.
however, the idea is still better in that adding metal is more cost and time effective than cutting it off.
shame how trying to be helpful can be less than you would hope
60044 wrote:Gresley 52'6" stock was built on 51ft underframes, with the extra 18" coming from the bowed wooden ends. Similarly, 61'6" stock was built on 60' underframes.
189 had flat ends and the length of the body was the same as the underframe.
.....but Thompson non-corridor underframes were 52'4", thy would be OK apart from having angle trusses.
[quote.....but Thompson non-corridor underframes were 52'4", thy would be OK apart from having angle trusses.[/quote]
I am aware of only 2 surviving Thompson none corridor underframes in existance and they both have carriage bodies on them (CL at the NYMR and BT at Bo'Ness)
I am still not clear what this coach looked like so I searched for "Clerestory Coach Wabtec Doncaster and on this page http://www.departmentals.com/photo/041568 one guy says "it used to be on a pig farm at Holme On Spalding Moor".
In 1977 I visited the former Holme Moor station and found this clerestory body http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/3328187653/ on a farm. Is this just a coincidence or are we talking about the same body? I've always wanted to know what happened to it because it was the best grounded coach body I ever personally saw.
PinzaC55 wrote:I am still not clear what this coach looked like so I searched for "Clerestory Coach Wabtec Doncaster and on this page http://www.departmentals.com/photo/041568 one guy says "it used to be on a pig farm at Holme On Spalding Moor".
In 1977 I visited the former Holme Moor station and found this clerestory body http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/3328187653/ on a farm. Is this just a coincidence or are we talking about the same body? I've always wanted to know what happened to it because it was the best grounded coach body I ever personally saw.
I am afraid PinzaC55 that ECJS189 was not the body that you took a picture of. That was a NE Brake Third of some description and I don't know whether that was ever preserved. As you say it looked very sound back in 1977 when you took the photo.
The link to departmentals.com that you have included takes you to the departmental carriage that was the underframe donor for 189 (and not 189). The VCT site link is here: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=2498.
Both the body of 189 and this underframe were purchased by Malcolm Ford and located at an industrial estate at Holme-on-Spalding-Moor. I have been in touch with Malcolm recently and will be doing an article on 189 for the LNERCA newsletter in the near future to include it's very interesting life post withdrawal in 1927. Until preservation by Malcolm it had been used as a shed on a pig farm near Howden.
The first photo shows the underframe that is currently under 189 with the Gresley body that was removed from it. The second photo shows an NER body, as said above. It isn't 189.
Even if there were any Thompson suburban underframes available they would not be suitable for 189 because they don't have the correct dragboxes for Pullman gangways. Trust us, chaps, we've considered all the options we can think of and asked people with experience of shortening underframes, we haven't just picked a plan from thin air!
PinzaC55 wrote:I am still not clear what this coach looked like so I searched for "Clerestory Coach Wabtec Doncaster and on this page http://www.departmentals.com/photo/041568 one guy says "it used to be on a pig farm at Holme On Spalding Moor".
In 1977 I visited the former Holme Moor station and found this clerestory body http://www.flickr.com/photos/pinzac55/3328187653/ on a farm. Is this just a coincidence or are we talking about the same body? I've always wanted to know what happened to it because it was the best grounded coach body I ever personally saw.
I am afraid PinzaC55 that ECJS189 was not the body that you took a picture of. That was a NE Brake Third of some description and I don't know whether that was ever preserved. As you say it looked very sound back in 1977 when you took the photo.
The link to departmentals.com that you have included takes you to the departmental carriage that was the underframe donor for 189 (and not 189). The VCT site link is here: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=2498.
Both the body of 189 and this underframe were purchased by Malcolm Ford and located at an industrial estate at Holme-on-Spalding-Moor. I have been in touch with Malcolm recently and will be doing an article on 189 for the LNERCA newsletter in the near future to include it's very interesting life post withdrawal in 1927. Until preservation by Malcolm it had been used as a shed on a pig farm near Howden.
Oh thanks for that info. I'm determined to find out what happened to that clerestory though. If I win the Lottery I may hire Time Team.
but since you are replacing what was originally a wooden underframe with a basically metal one, you could surely be more creative
at each end there was a massive american oak buffer beam, at least 11inches deep by 4.5 inches wide.
based on the data in Hoole's book the underframe should be 52 4.5 over the headstocks, buffer beams, so once you take off the 9 inches for the beams, you end up at 51ft 7.5in of metal work which seems to suggest it would be much easier using a shorter gresley underframe, rather than cutting down a 61ft6 one. i realise this assumes that 51 ft6 underframes are available
the other thing of course is to find some fox bogies
research shows that lancaster carriage built some, and indeed oldbury too, but Hoole is pretty certain that doncaster built 189.
Not sure about 51' 6" underframes. A GE section 51' Gresley underframe (with castings for Pullman gangways and buckeyes) would be too short and the addition of oak beams on the headstocks would leave us no better off than the suburban one that 189 currently sits on. Adding a section in the middle would be as big a job as shortening a 60' underframe.
We are on the look out for a pair of Fox bogies though, because as much as I like Gresley ones, they just don't look right under a clerestory carriage!
i agree about the bogies, but i do wonder whether it is worth considering copying the original in that ecjs stock until 1905 had a big wooden frame at each end inside, see michael harris "great northern railway and ecjs carriages from 1905 in the oakwood series.
don't agree with many of his comments about pre gresley carriages, however his description of the earlier underframes is valuable.
as for the use of ecjs items elsewhere, most were eventually cascaded into, or bought by the GNR, and then used on both main line and secondary stock. in addition, much of the stock on the 1938 No 1 special was ex ECJS stock..
john coffin wrote:i agree about the bogies, but i do wonder whether it is worth considering copying the original in that ecjs stock until 1905 had a big wooden frame at each end inside, see michael harris "great northern railway and ecjs carriages from 1905 in the oakwood series.
don't agree with many of his comments about pre gresley carriages, however his description of the earlier underframes is valuable.
as for the use of ecjs items elsewhere, most were eventually cascaded into, or bought by the GNR, and then used on both main line and secondary stock. in addition, much of the stock on the 1938 No 1 special was ex ECJS stock..
paul
does any body know what happened to tho body that was at humshaugh,the last i saw it ,
it still had doors inside with what appeared to be also tooled leather panels still insitu
