Fish vans

[jwealleans]

Nick (2512silverfox) has very helpfully offered to summarise the different fish vans built by the LNER. To further stimulate discussion, I thought I'd post up a picture of the fish train I run on Thurston (East Anglia, 1947-55), to perhaps give people some ideas of what's available and ideally get some new ideas myself.

Rather than photograph the train on a layout I've taken a shot of the storage box in which it travels. I have just extended this train from 15 to 23 vehicles, so the weedkilling train which also normally lives in here is going to have to be rehoused. If anyone wants a closer shot of any of the vans I'm happy to oblige.



Working along from the top, left to right;

The van on the extreme left and the lower one next to it are the cut down Parkside kits (PC56) discussed and illustrated on my WB over the last week or so.

The van above that is a standard Parkside corrugated end LNER van (PC26). There's one illustrated in the Cheona 'LNER wagons' book by David and Claire Williamson with a cast 'fish' plate attached and this is a straight copy of that.

The next 6 are all 12' WB vans of the type built after 1937. These were a job lot off Ebay and are, I think, Cotswold kits - they have a plastic body which may be the ancestor of the Parkside kit but with a whitemetal chassis and brake gear. I've had to add or restore a lot of the running gear on these but they bulk the train up nicely.

Across the centre is the Cambrian D 1885 LMS van on the WB very recently (C87), then a Roger Chivers LMS 6 wheel van (RC 436), then the allocated brake van, a Dapol kit built to BR design.

On the bottom row, the Conflats are the latest work in progress. The left hand one is a Parkside Conflat S (PC35), the next two Conflat As, one Bachmann, one Parkside (PC52). All the AF containers are Bachmann, repainted and detailed.

Working right, on the upper row are two Parkside LMS 6t vans (PC59) - a straight build of their kit with some detailing (I think Steve Banks did this in BRM some time ago). Below them a Parkside 12' WB recessed door van (PC57) - probably strictly too late for the era we profess to show and next to it a 51L NE (NERDF006) type. probably stretching it again as these lasted until 1954 but most likely as general vans rather than on fish work.

Finally at the right hand end upper an LNER van of the first type built - same comment probably applies by this time) and below it a D 1662 LMS van. These last two are both ABS kits (F499 and F651 respectively).

On the stocks I have a couple of David Geen GW conflats which will carry some more of the Bachmann containers when I find any.

The other thing I keep being prodded to build is an 'Insixfish' - I have photos of them in East Anglia at the right time and it's on the 'maybe' list. If there was a kit I'd go for it but as things stand it would have to be a scratchbuild.

[2512silverfox]

As promised, herewith the fish van details for the main four diagram which we have been discussing.

Dia 23 Outside frame 9.0" Wb 1924/5 132001 - 132200
1925 134878 - 134917
1927/8 151150 - 151659
1928 153136 - 153175
1929 157953 - 158252
1929 158357 - 158436
1930 159742 - 159941
1931 167820 - 167899
Total 990 but there was a small batch which I have not included in 1925 which were branded goods rather than fish.

Dia 37 Outside frame 14' 0" Wb 1928 150970 - 151019 ((50)

Dia 83 Vert planks 10' 0" Wb 1931/2 168935 - 170434
1934 174800 - 174899
1936 183841 - 184090
1937 203317 - 203466
Total 2,000.

Dia 134 Vert plank 12' 0" Wb 1938 222832 - 222971
1938/9 229103 - 230902
Total 1,940

The numbers given are as allocated but we may have to wait until Vol 4 before the full details are known This should not be too long now. These are all the vans built by the LNER.

[Atlantic 3279]

Thanks for that clarification Nick, especially regarding the diag 83 numbers, and I'm glad to see that you've included diagram 37. I believe that a single image of a diagram 37 model appears elsewhere on this forum. I'd love the builder to treat us to an account of how he did that one, nudge, nudge.

If LNER-executed fish downgrades/conversions of former North Eastern or H & B refrigerator vans are considered to be a relevant part of this topic, I have no objection, if Jonathon and others wish, to the insertion of a link to my early 2011 work on those Hornby models, or even to the duplication of relevant parts of my material within this main thread, so long as that isn't seen as a waste of Richard's server capacity.

Are we generally including pre-group survivors in this LNER fish vans topic? I imagine these featured quite strongly in many fish trains until the late 1930s or later still.

[jwealleans]

I was hoping the thread would encompass pregrouping vans as well. I may dig my GC ones out and phot them if no-one else beats me to it.

[2512silverfox]

I think that pre-group fish vans would have comprised a large proportion of vehicles, reducing only gradually up unti WW2. This change would have happened much in the same way that coaching stock evolved. I still have a thing about the operators of LNER layouts that seem to think that only Gresley 61' 6" stock prevailed in the period between 1923 and 1939!

I have models of GN, NE and GC fish vans courtesy of D&S which all ran in trains up to 1939, and an ex NBR 6 wheel fish van, examples of which appear quite frequently in photos at the head of Scottish fish traffic. The only type which I am sure had disappeared by the 1930s, were the open fish trucks which carried crated fish in ice. GN and NE used them but there may have been others.

I do not have complete number ranges for the pg types, but can come up with examples.

Nick

[65447]

I was hoping the thread would encompass pregrouping vans as well. I may dig my GC ones out and phot them if no-one else beats me to it.

2 former GCR fish vans followed by early LNE types being hauled by a shunting tractor on the dockside at Lowestoft, c1933.

(c) Arthur Dudley, from the Brian Dale Collection

[65447]

The only type which I am sure had disappeared by the 1930s, were the open fish trucks which carried crated fish in ice. GN and NE used them but there may have been others.

The GER also used open type fish trucks, with some being converted to covered fruit vans.

[scottiedog]

The North Eastern Railway built, upto 1902, a total of 602 5t Open Fish Trucks to their Dia C1. Withdrawl started in 1921 when more of their Dia F6 10t Fish Vans came into service. 379 were taken into LNER ownership and one seemingly survived until 1947! However most would have probably gone by the late 1920s. 950 Dia F6 10t Fish Vans were built, 895 were taken into LNER ownership, 366 were still extant in 1940, with an additional 73 being converted into "general" vans and 1 into an insulated van. A number were still in service in 1947 both as Fish and General Vans.

For further information please see British Railway Journal NER Special Edition and LNER Wagons Vol 2, the latter by Peter Tatlow.

A 4mm/1ft scale kit for the Dia C1 is available, along with a 4mm/1ft Scale kit for the Dia F6, from Wizard/51L Models. ABS also do a 4mm/1ft scale kit for the earlier LNER O/F Fish Van.

[jwealleans]

I hope Nick can post up his GN vans on here as I never obtained any while Dan was producing them.

Here are my GC versions:



The short wheelbase one as illustrated by 64447 above, one of Danny's later kits. I don't think the GCRS have this one but Bill Bedford offers it.



The famous bogie van, formerly available from R & E Models. These are now available from Brassmasters.



I believe the former Chivers kit above is still available from Five79 models.

The 15' WB van which was used for fish traffic is available from Falcon Brass, although I'm unsure of it's current status since the range was acquired by Dart Castings. I have one unbuilt so I can't comment on how accurate or easy it is. Falcon used to list another GC fish van, but I have neither built nor seen one so I can't say what prototype it represents.

The GCRS also have the former D & S kit for the 15' WB van.

Finally not GC but Graeme requested it, the Dia 37 LNER van scratchbuilt by cthompson of this Parish for the Ormesby layout Pilmoor.

[IAK]

Yup, young Matty Chivers is doing another run of those Fish Vans I think...

Excellent looking rake methinks
You've put a lot in to them and reaped the dividends!

[mick b]

Some of mine

D&S NBR

D&S NER

WSM Version GCR Bogie

ABS/D&S LNER

[Atlantic 3279]

Sorry about some of these images, which are old files from a more basic camera, but.....
D & S long wheelbase van in use by LNER as a fish van:

and the correct HMRS legend thereon:

I believe Falcon also offered a kit for the above, as Jonathon suggested. Has the Falcon brand really been acquired by Dart? My last news on this was that no buyer had been found for the range and the owner had given up looking. I believe it was once suggested to me that Falcon also did this next item, the final GN fish van:

Mine are actually D&S, although not the standard version, as I jumped the gun and made mine from Dan's standard goods vans, before he did the fish. I had to cut off the upper half of each side and rebuild it in layers of plastikard and strip, add new sliding doors, and make some minor changes to the ends. The North Eastern van glimpsed on the left was in the 51L range at the time, though I suspect it originated with D&S too.

Another pair of D&S GC fish vans:


Full length and shortened Parkside 1930s LNER:

You can see that I opted for a cut in the right half of the side that saved the full length top door runner and the bottom brackets, but lost me the door stops......


Fish downgrade of NE F10 fridge van, and parent version, both from modified Hornby vehicles. If aiming to copy these, make sure that the Hornby fridge van you buy is the mid-nineteen-eighties-onwards version AND that it is one of those that Hornby issued on the reasonably realistic NE underframe, as they have also been issued on one of Hornby's generic wagon underframes.....

Those last two vans are covered in more detail elsewhere, starting mid-way down this page
loco-vans-brakes-workbench-another-cunn ... 3s675.html
and re-appearing intermittently to page 55. The earlier Hornby H & B style fridge van is also covered, some of which may later have gone into fish traffic too, but you'll need to check Tatlow or other sources for confirmation.

[mick b]

Dart took the Falcon range over a few weeks ago. No idea when or what will be reissued .

Re photos how do you post yours ? As you can see mine always appear in little boxes!!

Thanks

[7mm Mick]

I thought I'd just chip in to say this is a really great thread with some lovely models. It's a particular interest to me as the area I model is The fair City of Hull and the East Riding. I know that parkside produce an LNER Fish Van but does anyone else know of any of the above models replicated in 7mm please ??

Many thanks Mick

[Wolf of Badenoch]

NBR Developments also do a model of a NBR open Fish Truck.