Crash at New Southgate - 1948

[giner]

I was just having a browse through the Railway Archive and came across this:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsum ... ?docID=875

The brief article states only that a "pacific type" locomotive was involved. Although only approaching five years of age at the time, am I correct in remembering seeing that A2 60508 Duke of Rothesay was the engine in question?

[Mickey]

Yes I believe it was the loco involved giner.

[giner]

Thanks, Micky.

When enlarged, the photo in RA doesn't show the loco. But looking at the smaller initial photo on the page, I see that the engine has the earlier six-wheel style of tender from its wing-type smoke deflector days (did 60508 ever have the wing-type deflectors?). Again, if my memory is intact, and which also seems to be borne out by the small photo, I seem to remember that 60508 had the larger type of smoke deflectors.

I imagine that the later style of tender would have been fitted during the repair work after the accident.

[Belvoir]

Saturday 17th. July, 1948 - 0750 Edinburgh - KX

A2/1 60508 "Duke of Rothesay" - Driver Bill Hoole and Fireman Albert Young.

Caused by derailment of the trailing axle of the bogie.

Fireman Young was swept from the footplate and killed.

Details extracted from "Bill Hoole - Engineman Extraordinary" (P.W.B. Semmens ISBN 0 7110 0556 7 )

[manna]

G'Day Gents

And did'nt Bill Hoole have a bit of resentment directed at him for turning up for work next day !!

I don't have a picture of the A2 but I do have a picture of a engine that helped clean up the mess.

manna

[Mickey]

Deleted

[giner]

Thanks for doing the legwork on that, Micky. I suppose it's understandable that track maintenance, like a lot of other things, was not up to snuff because of the war. Maybe driver Hoole was trying to make up a few minutes in being over the 60 mph limit (maybe tiredness was a factor). I'm sure I've read somewhere that he was a bit of a speed demon. That said, after a long night stint, we've all just wanted to get home and get some sleep.

[jwealleans]

The report makes interesting reading. Driver Hoole was apparently trying to make up time - they had been 20 down and he'd got 10 of them back - and the Inspector concluded that he was doing nearer 70 than the maximum 60. The loco had no speedometer, though.

What interested me was that the accident was caused by track which was out of vertical alignment by under an inch. I think those of us with no practical railway experience overlook the precision and care with which things like the permanent way had to be maintained and the tiny margins of error allowed before something like this happened.

[Mickey]

Deleted

[Bryan]

What interested me was that the accident was caused by track which was out of vertical alignment by under an inch. I think those of us with no practical railway experience overlook the precision and care with which things like the permanent way had to be maintained and the tiny margins of error allowed before something like this happened.

Its not really the track being out of position vertically that is the problem. Especially if its both rails together.
It is when one rail suddenly drops or rises creating what is known as a twist.
There are design limits as to what amount of twist is allowed generally 1 in 400 I think, is the limit for design as this is the bottom limit when designing a transition into a curve.

The PWI definition is:-
"A twist is a track condition where there is a difference in crosslevels over a short distance and which is normally expressed as a gradient over either a 3m or 5m length. A twist may be intentional eg within a cant transition where one rail rises relative to the other by a predetermined amount per unit length. Or unintentional eg at a slurry spot where the sleepers are badly supported.

A twist fault is where the twist gradient exceeds 1 in 200 or 15 mm change over 3 metre or 4 sleepers.

A recent occurance last year on the Severn Valley resulted in a derailment this was a combination of a twist fault and an unbalanced tender where the springing had got out of balance for some reason.

[jwealleans]

This is the report itself: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docume ... e1948.pdf.

If I've understood there was a variation in the cross levels which started the loco rolling after which it went over an overpacked joint (a peak, effectively) and the combination of roll and change in track level caused the rear bogie axle to derail. That in itself wasn't catastrophic until it hit a point and caused the whole loco to derail and roll over.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

I know from experience, when you hit a slurry spot ( a light brown clayey area under the track, caused by water) the loco can give one hell of a lurch.

Remembering a picture of what I thought was the New Southgate accident, has turned out to be another turned over LNER/BR Pacific, it appears to be 60153, laying on it left hand side, with the caption, 'An engine and coaches were derailed through the expansion of the track in the heat' anyone know were this was? the engine has no nameplate on it's smoke deflector, so I would say very early 50's.

manna

[Marx]

G'day Manna,

Re that crash with Driver Hoole.............Pete Green (for it was he) told me that when he was a fireman, he remembered Hoole going back to the cross that day looking for extra work!
Pete was a friend of the fireman killed.............And that, he caused a lot of ill feeling with other footplate crews.............

Marx

[v3man]

60153 was involved in a derailment at Tollerton on 5th June 1950 caused by buckled track whereby the engine derailed to the left, and ploughed through the adjacent Up slow line into the bank of a shallow cutting, against which it came to rest at an
angle of about 45".

Full accident report at http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docume ... on1950.pdf

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Thanks for that Marx, that makes Bill a bit of a guts then!

And thanks to v3man, for clearing up that little mystery for me, it is in a very old kids 'Book of Trains'

manna