Early and Late BR Liveries

[majormagna]

I know that BR changed their crest in 1956, I heard somewhere that the 'blood & custard' coach livery was replaced with the maroon at the same time. Is this correct?

If so, would it have been possible to see locos and stock working in both pre-'56 and post-'56 liveries in the same place? For example, a train of mixed 'B&C' and Maroon carriages?

[richard]

Mixed liveries: definitely. BR Mk1 trains were notorious for their colourful mix of different liveries - B&C, maroon, C&C, green - all in one train.


Richard

[strang steel]

I know that BR changed their crest in 1956, I heard somewhere that the 'blood & custard' coach livery was replaced with the maroon at the same time. Is this correct?

If so, would it have been possible to see locos and stock working in both pre-'56 and post-'56 liveries in the same place? For example, a train of mixed 'B&C' and Maroon carriages?

Yes, but the transition was much faster than that from maroon to blue/grey. If you look at photos and video from that period you notice that in 1958 there are lots of early crest locos and cr/cream carriages, but by summer 1959 on mainline services, the number of maroon coaches outnumbered the two colour ones, and by summer 1960 there were only one or two c/c liveries in an 11 or 12 coach maroon train.

In fact this can be a good way of narrowing down the dates on certain undated pictures, just by looking at the incidence of c/c in the formation.

I would love to know if Richard has a link to a photo, or video, with all 4 liveries in one train. I have tried to find an example but cant remember ever seeing one, so please put me out of my misery.

There are many photos with the various combinations of three liveries in one train.

[majormagna]

Many thanks for the speedy replies; I'm guessing on branch lines and secondary sheds there would have been a slightly longer/gradual transition period between the two liveries?

[richard]

strang steel: I've heard tales of them being all mixed up, but no I don't have a photo of all four - so it could be particularly rare I wouldn't want to bet it didn't happen though.

re. blue&grey - yes I think I've only seen those mixed with the earlier liveries in preservation era shots.

Richard

[Autocar Publicity]

I think I saw a photo of somewhere on the Southern Region with four liveries in a 10 - 15 coach train, green, c/c, maroon and ? If I come across it, I'll post.

[coachmann]

With thousands of coaches to repaint when there was a livery change, it took years to carry out. Even then some carmine & cream coaches never saw maroon. If a coach had just recieved B&C just prior to the change to maroon, then that coach could run another 5 -6 years before its next paintjob. If it happened to be nearing withdrawal then the repaint never happened.

I recall seeing Gresley wooden coaches in Manchester Exchange in peeling two tone livery at the end of their lives. Also ex-LMS 2-window open coaches on the Bangor-Afonwen service in carmine & cream in 1962.

The other side of the coin also occured. Suppose an elderly coach was in dire need of a repaint by 1957, it would get the then new maroon livery. I saw this on a Midland Railway D1284 brake third that was withdrawn two years later.

Many ex LNWR coaches never even got any BR official livery. They were touched up or repainted using LMS lake in the 1950s right to the end of their lives. I have only seen one photo of a LNWR Toplight corridor coach in carmine & cream, and that was running on the Eastern Region.

[majormagna]

Ahain, many thanks for the information. Two more questions, when was BR Express blue phased out? All I know is that it was pre-'56...

Secondly, when was the early emblem introduced? Some sources say 1948, whereas others go as late as 1950...

[coachmann]

As far as I am aware, the express passenger livery of blue was phased out beginning in 1952. The early totem became widely available in early 1949. Some locos were painted but ran totemless for a while. The full title BRITISH RAILWAYS was used in various forms in 1948.

[strang steel]

Many thanks for the speedy replies; I'm guessing on branch lines and secondary sheds there would have been a slightly longer/gradual transition period between the two liveries?

Yes, most probably - but you have to remember that the majority of branch line passenger services were taken over by dmus in the late 50s/early 60s, so that the transition as such would not have taken place to any great extent. Also, if a branch was worked by non corridor stock the transition would have only been from crimson to maroon (assuming the diesels did not take over).

[strang steel]

strang steel: I've heard tales of them being all mixed up, but no I don't have a photo of all four - so it could be particularly rare I wouldn't want to bet it didn't happen though.

re. blue&grey - yes I think I've only seen those mixed with the earlier liveries in preservation era shots.

Richard

There are many photos of blue/grey, maroon and green stock in one train and it may have been possible to see blue/grey, maroon and chocolate/cream together for a very short period (There is a photo somewhere on the internet of a choc/cream coach next to the loco on a train at Sheffield Midland in the mid 60s).

I have my doubts that a crimson/cream liveried Mk1 survived long enough to appear with a blue/grey one, but there is a video taken in the north Birmingham area, which purports to be 1966 and in the middle of a Peak hauled SW-NE service is a crimson/cream coach, but I would question whether the year is correct.

The difficulty we face with proving four liveries in one train, is that very little can be ascertained from b/w photographs because of the difficulty in telling choc/cream from crimson/cream if the coach is located anywhere other than at the front of the train.

[redtoon1892]

Try some of the film clips on this site and I think you will find what you are looking for.

http://www.britishrailways.tv/british-r ... eo_id=1656

[strang steel]

Try some of the film clips on this site and I think you will find what you are looking for.

http://www.britishrailways.tv/british-r ... eo_id=1656

Possibly, but I would take the dates of the clips with a big pinch of salt.

There is one where many of the A3s are without smoke deflectors, but the date is given as c1962.

c1959 would be more appropriate, especially given the number of crimson/cream coaches and Gresley restaurant cars in the train formations.

Another way of dating clips is the appearance of the small overhead electrification plates on locomotives; they were quite rare in 1960, but were almost universal towards the end of 1961.

[redtoon1892]

Aye I agree on the dates, guesstimates I would say.
The point is though the mixed livery stock is what the poster is looking for.

[w0033944]

As an ER blue diesel fan (I know, I'm here because I do love the LNER and because my dad models it), I can confirm that, whilst rail blue/grey first appeared in reasonable quantity in '67, maroon still lingered until around 1971-ish, and, possibly into 1972 on minor routes. Of course, some Gresley buffets were reliveried in blue&grey (I'm after one of the Hornby models for my modelling activities).