Brookmans Park - Down side siding.

[Eightpot]

I hope this can help, here is a photo of the sidings at Hawshead. not too sure of the date.

The building behind the white fence on the left was (probably) a P. W. one, later replaced, if I recall correctly, by a concrete one. The siding is beyond this and the object seen is a wagon on the siding.

[thesignalman]

The building behind the white fence on the left was (probably) a P. W. one, later replaced, if I recall correctly, by a concrete one. The siding is beyond this and the object seen is a wagon on the siding.

Thanks, I still can't make it out but I get the gist - its probably my eyes and not the picture.

John

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

I think I get your meaning Micky, but you're a bit adrift on some of the signal type/functions.

After Marshmoor's up homes, the next signals in the '60s (and for a long time before that) that could show Danger were the pair of colour-lights a few hundred yards past Brookmans Park station towards Potters Bar [and referred to, along with that Down Fast Automatic signal (by then a R/G colour-light) M28, as 'Hawkshead']. These up signals were referred to as Marshmoor's 'Intermediate Block' signals M4 (Up Slow) and M9 (UF), and used to protect the 'Hawkshead' Up Slow - Up Fast crossover motored-points (5) before it was abolished (before my time, so pre-'67) - (whether these signals should really have been regarded as I.B.s in a Track-Circuit Block area is a debate in itself).

The pair of colour-lights before that, a fair way north of Brookmans, near the beginning of 'Poplars' or 'Peplins, Wood' on the up side, were only distant signals [ I think they were numbered R4 and R9 on the diagram] : Without checking any diagram, I've a feeling the Up Slow signal could only show Yellow/Green, but that R9 on the UF was a Y/YY/G, which would've given consistent 4-aspect style aspect sequences through Brookmans/Hawkshead/Potters Bar [continuing on towards Hadley Wood and New Barnet: (The next semaphore on the Up Fast after Marshmoor was Cemetery's Home, following a run of 12 colour-lights) ], along the higher-speed Up Fast line.

Then finally, still working backwards, there was the over-hanging signal you mentioned, which must have been fairly close to the old site of Bell Bar box. As you no doubt remember this stood in the cess of the Up Slow but was cantilevered out to put its suspended signal head just on to left of the UF, and was an outer distant for M9 (I think it was not numbered on the diagram; merely described), so could only show YY or G. Whereas I'm pretty sure R4 and R9 signal posts were quite old, this outer-distant signal structure was of very similar type to those cantilevered types used between Greenwood and Potters Bar, and at Wymondley, so I reckon it was a much later addition (of the 1950s?), to give a greater braking distance to M9 if at red, when the UF linespeed was presumably increased.

You probably know that there were several places where YY/G outer distants were installed to increase available braking distances from those provided by the existing (and retained) semaphore distants (Hitchin South, Arlesey? Langford Bridge? Paxton?).

[Mickey]

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[StevieG]

Rather an exaggeration I think Micky, though I might be getting near that in just a few southern areas.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Well he knows it a lot better than me! at least I can see it in my minds eye, if I remember it correctly, wasn't it backed with some big trees, which made it stand out very well even in daylight ??

The only thing I can say about that bit of track and signaling is I've never been stopped between Hatfield and Potters Bar by a signal, almost got stopped on the down slow when 'London John' was doing a bit of shunting at Marshmoor early one morning, strange diagram, used to start at about 0745 and left KX with a loco and 5 suburban coaches all station to WGC, cross over and run round and leave WGC all in about 10 mins and make the last train down the drain to Moorgate, after that it was light engine to KX loco and spare for the rest of the shift.

manna

[StevieG]

The last page (No.15) of this MoT Report - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docume ... rs1946.pdf - into the 1946 Potters Bar collision, fortunately has an extensive plan of the signalling over the large area from Greenwood to Marshmoor (+ a few parts of Redhall), including the Hawkshead Siding.
Some of the signalling we have mentioned is shown, including R4 and R9, and the Down Fast M28 at Hawkshead being a semaphore, but thanks to later alterations (including the later appearance of the UF Outer Distant for Marshmoor 9), a good part of the detailed arrangements shown here had changed by the late 1960s.

[thesignalman]

Hi Andy,

Red Hall box: down side at 16m 40¾ch, opening date unknown, which I have closing 07.02.1965

Nearest I can offer on Red Hall opening is the first half of the 1870s.

. . . and Micky,

I've seen a picture of BELL BAR s/box (in operation between circa 1875-1885?)

I suspect that is the picture available from the GNR Society - it has appeared in at least one book.

Finally, i've only ever seen one distant picture of REDHALL s/box situated beside the down slow line between MARSHMOOR and HATFIELD No1 s/boxes (on the long curve near where the motorway now is situated since the mid-1960s to the south of HATFIELD old town).

I think I have some pictures inside and out but can't locate them at the moment. Subject to any copyright issues I'll post them when they surface.

John

[Mickey]

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[Mickey]

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[AndyRush]

Rather an exaggeration I think Micky, though I might be getting near that in just a few southern areas.

I use to think i was HOT on the route knowledge between Kings Cross-Peterborough and everything in between back around 1969-74 but you leave me in the starting blocks Stevie!!!

Good on you

Some sections of the old G.N. main line have always been abit 'hazy' especially the road between-

Newark flat crossing to Grove road s/box (south of Retford) including Carlton, Tuxford & Eggmanton s/boxes

Babworth s/box (north of Retford) to Rossington (south of Doncaster) incluing Botany Bay, Ranskill, Bawtry s/boxes

Doncaster station to Shaftholme Junction s/box

but nevermind...

You need to start a new thread (or threads) for that lot!

Andy

[StevieG]

Rather an exaggeration I think Micky, though I might be getting near that in just a few southern areas.

" .... Some sections of the old G.N. main line have always been abit 'hazy' especially the road between-
Newark flat crossing to Grove road s/box (south of Retford) including Carlton, Tuxford & Eggmanton s/boxes
Babworth s/box (north of Retford) to Rossington (south of Doncaster) incluing Botany Bay, Ranskill, Bawtry s/boxes
Doncaster station to Shaftholme Junction s/box

but nevermind... "

You need to start a new thread (or threads) for that lot!

Andy

And I won't be able to help with it.
Where those sections of line are concerned, I'm left standing behind the starting blocks (apart from one SRS visit to the Donc. station boxes sometime around 1980-ish).

[thesignalman]

Nice one John, if you havan't got anything of particular interest on a s/box on the G.N.R. (& Midland Railway) then i doubt if anybody else has?

Here is the picture of the interior of Red Hall I mentioned:

Photo: Collection of John Hinson

John

[Mickey]

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