Fast Freights

[CVR1865]

Hi,

I was thinking with the advent of the fitted freight wagons from Bachmann, we can now add them to rakes of kit built examples to run fast fitted trains, such as the Green Arrow express Freight.

Doe anyone know the sort of speeds these trains were signalled/timed to? I imagine they had priority over a lot of services save for the express passenger trains.

Also the LNER hoppers, I thought there was a thread on their use, but I cannot find it, only Mick B's lovely models, so another query, where they run in fixed rakes and what was their usual territory was it coal yards for locos or power stations or onward to the ports for export?

Thank you in advance for any replys.
Simon

[52D]

Simon in 1966 Alnwick had a couple of hoppers every few days depending on the season, tripped in by the local pick up goods from Shilbottle coillery exchange sidings to the staiths at the back of the station.

[cambois]

I can only talk about my time in the 70s in the north east. There were still lots of former LNE 21 ton hoppers working in the North East, along with BR 21 and 24 ton hoppers. They were all interchangeable for the local North east mineral leading work.

In South East Northunmberland the working were not generally in fixed blocks, the exception being from 1978 the class 47 hauled Butterwell - Wilton MGR operation. The tradional coal hoppers were all worked unfitted, in 20-25 to a rake, between the pits and open cast sites and Blyth Power station(s), Blyth West Staiths, Isabella for blending with Bates colliery coal and shipping from the NCB staithes and domestic (household) coal which all went to Tyne Yard for marshalling even if it came back to Morpeth or Alnmouth. There was one fully fitted working - Shilbottle, (originally New, then South) to Oxwellmains with coal for the cement works. This was an out and back Blyth working and was the first operation over the new Penmanshiel diversion in August 1979, a full week before it opened to passenger trains. Main line power was universally 37s by the time I got there (start 1978).

Coal for shipping was blended into the ships, so the wagons from different collieries were mixed up in the short sidings above the spouts and then gravitated down as required, and when empty were just allowed to gravitate down the empties road, where they were cut off into rakes of empties for the next loading point. So there were well mixed up. My recollection is that at this time was that there were about 10,000 hoppers in use in the north east, and at that time there were considerably fewer than 10,000 MGR wagons, because I remember the 10,000th one being built at Shildon whilst I was at Darlington probably 1980? I also remember the original one (was it 360000?) coming back for rebodying!

These 21 ton hoppers went everywhere that there suitable discharge facilities, in particular small stations all over the former North Eastern, so I had them at Northallerton, Bedale, Driffield (and so on) as I moved about. So these were worked in single wagon lots

Only part LNE, but the Kincardine power station working from Polmaise were similar with a fleet of 24.5 tonne unfitted hoppers which ran in a block load, but the train was broken up for loading at Fallin so was not a proper block load. Power was a single 20!

Hope that provides a bit of an insight into the working of the time. I always through not much different to the Stevenson era, just bigger wagons and bigger locos, of which I think he would have approved

[JeffB]

Hi Simon.
In the early 60s we would often get up to 60mph on a one speed fitted freight. The Kings Cross - Niddrie freight as an example. A lot depended on the type of wagon, wheelbase of the wagons, what sort of bearings they had etc. With sustained fast running there was always the risk of a hotbox which often occurred.

[Bryan]

Couldn't resist adding a shot of our original line up of hoppers.
A bit depleted nowadays though, but at least 4 are still in PW use for ballast.
In all I think we acquired 9 from internal use at Rowntrees at York.

[65447]

Hi,

I was thinking with the advent of the fitted freight wagons from Bachmann, we can now add them to rakes of kit built examples to run fast fitted trains, such as the Green Arrow express Freight.

Doe anyone know the sort of speeds these trains were signalled/timed to? I imagine they had priority over a lot of services save for the express passenger trains.

Typically 50-60 mph. The long wheelbase brake van was tested up to 75mph.

[rob237]

Recall a Steam World? article, from some years ago, describing a ride aboard a SR Queen Mary brake on the 'Niddrie Scotch Goods' from KX to York. IIRC, the author was Dick Hardy...
Was the Queen Mary brake a regular feature on the working?
Cheers
Robt P.

[James Brodie]

Sirs, Our FF freights the box wagons were max speed 45mph, a T wagon (21t steel hopper) was max speed 50mph but these wagons were mainly unfitted. We ran with wood or steel wagons indiscriminately and the mineral trains could have either all 21t or a mix of 13t hoppers. here again steel or wood. As new guards came along the term T changed to XXs for the 21t and X for the 13t."you have 16 Xs and 24 XXs on" sort of comments. Even POWs were mixed in.
The pick ups would have a few hoppers on for the branch line stations and we would shunt over the elevated coal cells sometimes get a florin tip if we dropped the load and took the wagon away again. There is still a set of overhead cell drops at Rosedale East at Depot House. The first cell still has traces of limestone in it.
We ran with either J26s or Q6s, a Q6 could manage on Raisby Hill (52)-fifty two XXs empties out and loaded backover to Teesside. Thirty odd was a normal load although we ran with (74) seventy four Tipplers to York where a garret took over and we worked his load back to either Teesside or West Hartlepool. As you will realise from the engines we were loose coupled men but a Q6 could shew the local passengers-Dtn Sbn- a clean pair of heels as long as we got the back board off.
happy days....Jim Brodie.

We sometime got a SR Bogie brake van on the mineral turns-luck of the draw- depended which van was first available on the van kip...the problem with the SR vans was the length of the end platform, it wasn't easy for the guard to louse off while the train was moving to enable him to run the van onto our outover load.The last colliery turn where we had a SR van was Mainsforth. When we got round our train we couldn't understand why the guard hadn't got the van off!!!apart from that they were very smooth riders with being on bogies. maybe should have allocated them onto the Aberdeen fish trains then swingers wouldn't have been needed to keep the van steady. if you got in a van for a ride home and the guard had a tow rope coiled round on the floor to sit in---then--you knew you were in for a rough ride!

[CVR1865]

Thank you to everyone who replied. Nice pictures of the hoppers too.

I am going to press on and construct a mixed train of coal wagons and then procure an O4 to haul it.

Thanks again.
Simon

[Sedgefield]

Just out of interest here is a photo of typical hoppers on Bedale Coal Cells on the weekend the local pick up service terminated on the Wensleydale branch in 1982.

[James Brodie]

I rode on this branch just before it closed using the pick up train to examine a fireman for passing out on driving duties-all was going well until he closed the throttle and slipped into EO !!!! When we were at Leyburn the crew went to have their bait and I shunted the coal staithes for the coalmen.needless to say despite the curious looks from the fireman The guard and I shared the tip
J B

[Blink Bonny]

Interesting thread, this.

However, I used to live (and did my early trainspotting) near to Thornhill Power Station which was used as a "dry run" for the MGR trains and had a multi-wagon unloader installed. It could tipple either 7 plank, 16T, 21T or 24T minerals plus had an early version ofthe "Dalek" machines used these days in MGR unloaders to operate the bottom doors on the hoppers. During the experiment, the station was fed entirely from hoppers which suited the men working on it just fine mainly because they just placed the wagon on the bridge and pushed a button or two and - job done. The longer wheelbase wagons were OK provided that they were fitted with rotating couplers. Put the wagon on the bridge, clamp down the top piece, push a button or two and - job done, once again.

The fun started when either wagons were fitted with non-rotating couplers or contained 16-tonners. If non-rotating couplers were fitted, the wagon had to be uncoupled orit would derail the adjacent wagons. This happened more often than one would think, leading to many people saying "oh, dear, how tiresome" or words to that effect. Trains of 16-tonners required the wagon to be pushed across the bridge, shunted back, uncoupled then tipped. With 40 or so of these to be emptied at a time, I learned most of my swear words watching this operation!

The hoppers I believe had to be brought down from the North East because local collieries with mechanical loading facilities were geared generally to either 16T or 21T minerals, these being the same height. Where the 24T wagons came from, I know not but the trains of hoppers looked amazingly exotic to my eyes. I modelled them in N gauge, using cut down Peco grain wagons. Just as I completed the rake, Dapol brought out their quite wonderful model but I've left well alone. From 4 feet away, the eye is fooled very nicely indeed!

[Solario]

Doe anyone know the sort of speeds these trains were signalled/timed to? I imagine they had priority over a lot of services save for the express passenger trains.

Rather belatedly, I have found reference to speeds in what was presumably the last General Appendix published by the LNER in November 1947.
There were several classes of Express Freight, each class determined by the proportion of braked as opposed to through-piped vehicles. The No 1 Express Goods was deemed to have an average speed of 50 mph and in a formation of 60 vehicles had to have at least 47 with vacuum brake. Slower classes could have a larger proportion of through-piped.
With an average speed of 50, I suppose the maximum running speed would be much more - 70/75?
Other considerations for the No1 were that all vehicles had to have oil axleboxes and no more than 2 through-piped could be coupled together.

[Blink Bonny]

I've certainly heard tales of the "Scotch Goods" rattling along at 70 behind an A4 post war. Pity the poor guard...

[CVR1865]

Solario,
Thanks for that I was curious on how they fast they really went. With the Scotch Goods and the Green Arrow service I imagine they were both class 1 freights along with some of the fish trains?

Great tips all round, Mr. BB yes one does pity the guard, if only he had a panic handle.

Simon