Help with track layout wanted

[Mick Berg]

Hello everyone.
This is my first post on this forum.
I am re-creating the Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace (Northern Heights) branch of the LNER in the Trainz TS2010 railway simulator. I am a bit confused with the track layout at the point where the branch joined the ECML just north of Finsbury Park. In the only map I have that shows enough detail (a 1915 OS map) there is a trailing crossover just before the ramp goes down to the western side of Finsbury Park Station. In the period I am recreating, just before the branch closed in 1954, I believe both up and down trains would go up and down the ramp. So up trains would have to shunt back and forth because the crossover is trailing. I'm sure they didn't do that! Can anyone explain this, is it possible that the crossover was changed to facing at some point?
Thanks in advance,
Mick Berg.

[R. pike]

FP No5 added to my site..

http://richard2890.fotopic.net/p68591962.html

No1 added too and there is a late No6 that has been there for some time.

I do have some S&T drawings for No7 too.

[StevieG]

The last normal passenger service ended in 1954, but the line remained operational in one way or another into the early 1970s; about '74 I think.
I came to know a lot about the signalling of this area in about 1968-70. At that time, and as far as I know, through from 1954 to then, the trailing crossover you refer to remained, but there was no on-site clue to, nor have I heard anything of, there ever having been a facing crossover there.

You don't mention it but I presume your 1915 map also shows a "S.B." near the trailing crossover (this was Finsbury Park No.7 box), and the Up line carrying straight on and crossing all the north/south ECML tracks on a 2-track flyover (that second line connected with the Down line at No.7 box), then both lines curving southwards on descending embankment towards Fins.Pk. station with, after some points connections from the Carriage Sidings and other lines, the main Up line entering the eastern-most platform (Plat.1) ?

The ramp you mention was only signalled for Down direction trains.
I can't say whether you're right about down and up trains all using the Down line ramp - perhaps the Alexandra Palace shuttle had to arrive and depart from one of the down platforms for some reason; perhaps temporary - but to do so would have necessitated the shunt back over No.7's trailing crossover, and I imagine, have involved applying some form of Single Line Working between No.7, No.5 box (the Down lines box at the North end of the station), and No.3 (Down lines, south end) for the unsignalled up direction moves from No.7 to the station.

[Mick Berg]

Hi.
Thanks for your interest. Yes, Signal Box No. 7 is the one that I'm asking about. It is indeed a mystery. I have a splendid book on the railway which says "An additional island platform was constructed on the down side in 1912 and later served the Alexandra Palace shuttles until their demise in 1954." So the up trains would have to use the ramp, unless they came into platform 1 and then went under the ECML at the underpass near Drayton Park, but I don't think so.

Thanks,
Mick Berg.

[StevieG]

The 1912 additional platform was Nos. 9 & 10, and also involved providing an additional line through the station (the "Down Canonbury", serving Plat.10); the Down Goods having to be slued over to the west to make room).

In my opinion, "...later served the Alexandra Palace shuttles until their demise in 1954." refers only to the down shuttles, and the up equivalents would have been using the "Up Branch" line (Plat.1 : Also afforded easier passenger connections with other local passenger trains using the adjacent Up Slow line (Plats. 2/3) : Shunting the up shuttles at No.7 and running them on the "Down Branch" ramp into the station under SLW would have required additional manpower (including to clip up around 5 or 6 point ends not fitted with facing point locks), been most inconvenient (e.g. quite restricting to use of the layout at No.5 by other moves wanting to change lines there), have been more demanding on the signalmen in the three boxes involved, also conceivably becoming less safe through risk of error increasing if done over a long period, and so I think it would not have been done except in case of blockage of the normal Up route by obstruction, emergency or engineering work.

Any Northern Heights passenger trains not running through to/from King's Cross, Moorgate or Broad Street (did they ever, I wonder?), would presumably have run as ECS from FP up side to down side via No.1 box on the Canonbury route, where, between the Up and Down Canonbury lines, there was a mostly-signalled pair of sidings forming a run-round loop, having direct connections with both main tracks (should be visible in the No.1 box diagram which R.Pike mentions is in his website gallery), perhaps provided for this very purpose.

[R. pike]

FP7 from John Hinson's site..

http://www.signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=272

and after a quick search..

http://overground.doeth.net/heights/

[StevieG]

P.S. R.Pike,
Nice diagram of No.5 that you've photographed.
( http://richard2890.fotopic.net/p68591962.html )
I've only ever seen later ones where the layout was virtually all track-circuited (perhaps excepting the Down Goods), so 14 (Down Slow 1 Clearance Bar) was Spare, the Down Slow No.1 line Homes had also become a single arm with 3-way large 'stencil' route indicator (on a big LH bracket), and there was no backslot indicated on Harringay West Station's Down Fast Distant. [Pretty sure I remember seeing that distant 'off' when Harringay was switched out, with FP5's DF Home at Danger. That home in its last form was a short arm (with sighting board), and I think, having an electric 'intensified' light, which could have explained later absence of backslotting HWS's distant.)
I note in your photo, the visual implication that the Down Canonbury platform was not Track-Circuit'd even though that Home signal has a Diamond plate like the others, and that platform was certainly TC'd (by about 1968 anyway; indicated at No.3 box). Have also seen somewhere at some time, a FP5 diagram stating that there was(/had been) a Gong lever (on the station I presume; lever 46 I think).