Bucket Seats

[Dave]

Hi peoples,

Does any one have any info on the bucket style seats, I have photos and a side elevation drawing as part of a carriage section, but nothing else, so far the drwgs I have seen have been altered to show the later high backed type.

Dave

[third-rail]

nice comfortable seats they were.try lnerca they have or are having some made.

[Dave]

Thanks
Yes they were, it has been writen that they were not.
I am a member of LNERCA I will look next time I`m there ....some time next year, I was trying to save some time from measuring one.

Dave

[MikeTrice]

Drawings of lower type, photos of NYMR higher back types.

As third-rail said, they are very comfortable.

[gdb]

Drawings of lower type, photos of NYMR higher back types.

Mike - great drawings and pictures, thank you.

What was the reason for "low" seats and for "high" seats? And how different in height is "low" from "high"?

regards, Graham Beare

[Dave]

Thank you Mike.

I will combine your section with mine ....and hay presto..

ps. my drawing list is taking some time to compile....

Dave

[Dave]

Graham.
There have been many reasons stated for the demise of the bucket seat, one oft quoted "they were uncomfortable", I don't remember them being so.
They did seem to disapear very quickly with very little trace of them being found. This may be explained as when refurbishing some of the later high backed seats at Pickering we found a seat base frame which was a bucket seat. So even in those days the LNER was at the forefront of recycling.

I understand the LNER Tyneside electrics kept their bucket seats ( I remember riding in these as a child ) untill they were withdrawn, can anybody confirm ?.

I have heard it said that the buckets were prone to their backs snapping when used by the armed forces as troop transports, and that was the reason for change...but I have no evidance to support this....an urban myth maybe.

Dave.

[scottiedog]

I can certainly confirm that the LNER North Tyneside Electrics kept their bucket seats, which I found extremely comfortable, until withdrawl. When I started work in Newcastle in 1963 I travelled daily on them from where I lived in Cullercoats. I, for one, did not like the replacement, dirty, noisey and uncomfortable, DMUs.
As an aside, for modellers, Dave Alexander (Models) was going to produce some 4mm/1ft scale duckets seats for his (delayed) North Tyneside Electric kits. I have seen the masters for them but do not know when, and if, they will be available.

[billdonald]

The North Tyneside 1937 articulated stock and the refurbished NER 1920 stock for the 1938 South Tyneside scheme had bucket seats. There were two types:

a) 3rd class - coloured brown exactly as per the photos posted.
b) 1st class - coloured light blue.

When 1st class accommodation was abolished in 1956, the seats and compartments were unchanged other than the removal of window class designation logos. This leads me to believe that in terms of the actual seat cushions and squabs, there was no difference other than colour.

The talk about their discomfort is yet another canard originating from Ken Hoole's writings on the Tyneside electrification. I have no idea where he got that one from, but there is no documented evidence to support his statement about this design of seat. Like his equally ludicrous assertions of the method of operation of the ES1 locomotives changing from overhead line to conductor rail in the Quayside Yard - it is high time these nonsensical myths were nailed once and for all.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

[third-rail]

the waiting rooms at manors north had these seats in the waiting room they may have have come out of the the two driving coaches that where writin off after the fatel headon collision outside the central station the two undamaged halves where united to make a unit

[MikeTrice]

Norman Newsome records in his 1948 paper:

"When first placed in service the trains [Tourist Stock] were extremely popular but later on, when they were used for night excursions, passengers complained that they could not lean back in the chairs and sleep as comfortably as they were able to do in the more orthodox type of seat. As further trains of this type were built the height of the seat backs was increased and later trains were fitted with seats of more normal type."

"Bucket seats of the type used in tourist trains were also embodied in many open third class carriages which had the standard teak panelled exterior, but they have been the subject of frequent complaints and when they require renewal they are being replaced by seats of the normal type."

[65447]

Harris (LNER Carriages, Atlantic, p.95) writes that "The seating was provided in bucket seats made up with ash frames, with plywood backs and sponge rubber roll-round tops covered in leather. Newsome says that it was Bulleid's idea that motor-car type seats should be used and that the design was worked out with the manufacturers." He goes on to mention the complaints concerning comfort and support.

However, a search of the PDF version of Newsome's paper does not produce any reference linking Bulleid with these carriages, so it must come from the involvement that Newsome had in the revisions to Harris' earlier book, as mentioned in the Preface.

I do not have any books about OVSB (which might perhaps be an omission on my part) but, if anyone does, perhaps they might check to see if there are any such references, as there may well also be concerning the 'inverted' clothes hanger in the sleeping carriages and other useful nuggets.

[65447]

Whilst researching a reply to gdb concerning 3-a-side seating, I came across another snippet that I could not find when I needed to (another senior moment).

Harris notes (LNER Carriages, Atlantic, p.36) that bucket seats, first introduced with the Tourist stock, were also fitted to standard teak-bodied Open 3rds and Brake Opens to Dias. 186/196/216/217 but again avers that they were unpopular with passengers and began to be replaced post-war by conventional seats. However there is another possible reason given, and that is the space between the seats and the carriage body interior side panel acted as a rubbish trap. In short in April 1942 some boys were travelling on a down East Coast train and started flicking matches at each other; a match dropped into and lodged in the gap, set fire to the rubbish and six boys died in the resulting fire, that carriage and an adjacent one being burned down to the frames (shades of Valley Parade and KX). According to the Accident Report the seat design was not blamed but that the seat-back covering of Rexine encouraged the spread of flame.

Later, in 1949, Rexine was recognised by BR as a fire risk but it took a serious train fire at Huntingdon in 1951, damaging one of the LNER high-speed twin-sets, for corrective action to be instigated (ibid, p.38).

[billdonald]

Whilst researching a reply to gdb concerning 3-a-side seating, I came across another snippet that I could not find when I needed to (another senior moment).

Harris notes (LNER Carriages, Atlantic, p.36) that bucket seats, first introduced with the Tourist stock, were also fitted to standard teak-bodied Open 3rds and Brake Opens to Dias. 186/196/216/217 but again avers that they were unpopular with passengers and began to be replaced post-war by conventional seats. However there is another possible reason given, and that is the space between the seats and the carriage body interior side panel acted as a rubbish trap. In short in April 1942 some boys were travelling on a down East Coast train and started flicking matches at each other; a match dropped into and lodged in the gap, set fire to the rubbish and six boys died in the resulting fire, that carriage and an adjacent one being burned down to the frames (shades of Valley Parade and KX). According to the Accident Report the seat design was not blamed but that the seat-back covering of Rexine encouraged the spread of flame.

Later, in 1949, Rexine was recognised by BR as a fire risk but it took a serious train fire at Huntingdon in 1951, damaging one of the LNER high-speed twin-sets, for corrective action to be instigated (ibid, p.38).

Excellent research work - well done.

Note that ny comments were purely in respect of the Tyneside electric stock. To be honest I knew about the Tourist stock but hadn't been aware of the use of these seats in the non-corridor open general-purpose vehicles. Incidently there was no gap between the seat and the side of the carriage on the electric stock, The only unusual feature, if you could call it that, was the body side of the seat rested on a small bracket attached to the electric heater enclosure which ran the length of the passenger compartment of each side of the vehicle.

Bill

[52D]

Whilst researching a reply to gdb concerning 3-a-side seating, I came across another snippet that I could not find when I needed to (another senior moment).

Harris notes (LNER Carriages, Atlantic, p.36) that bucket seats, first introduced with the Tourist stock, were also fitted to standard teak-bodied Open 3rds and Brake Opens to Dias. 186/196/216/217 but again avers that they were unpopular with passengers and began to be replaced post-war by conventional seats. However there is another possible reason given, and that is the space between the seats and the carriage body interior side panel acted as a rubbish trap. In short in April 1942 some boys were travelling on a down East Coast train and started flicking matches at each other; a match dropped into and lodged in the gap, set fire to the rubbish and six boys died in the resulting fire, that carriage and an adjacent one being burned down to the frames (shades of Valley Parade and KX). According to the Accident Report the seat design was not blamed but that the seat-back covering of Rexine encouraged the spread of flame.

Later, in 1949, Rexine was recognised by BR as a fire risk but it took a serious train fire at Huntingdon in 1951, damaging one of the LNER high-speed twin-sets, for corrective action to be instigated (ibid, p.38).

Excellent research work - well done.

In reply to Bill and gdb there were also a couple of incidents in Penmanshiel tunnel in the late forties early fifties with fires im sure that Rexine was involved in both.