Kings Cross

[StevieG]

Entirely understandable Mr. Signalman.

The Kings Cross - Peterboro' circuit cards that I saw showed it to serve (signal boxes unless otherwise stated) :
KC - FO
KC - Kings + T.O. (Telegr.Office)
BX - Kings Cross signal box
PO - Potters Bar
HD - Hatfield No.1
XO - Hatfield T.O.
HH - Hatfield No.2
KR - Knebworth
HF - Hitchin South
HT - Hitchin T.O.
CJ - Crescent Junction (Peterboro')
PE - Peterborough T.O.
EY - Eastfield
FO - (New England 'Office'?)

So, as you said Micky, this circuit wasn't in Welwyn Garden City box.
The notes I made of the circuits that were there, on the telegraph concentrator etc., state that it had :
KC - HT; Kings + T.O. to Hitchin T.O.
YF - HT; Wood Green No.3 (later, from Wood Green No.1), to Hitchin T.O.
XO - DU; Hatfield T.O. to (Dunstable?)
XO - FU; Hatfield T.O. to Sandy box [previously, also to Sandy North (SY)]
I also thought WGC was on the AU - HT circuit (Wood Green No.4 to Hitchin T.O., but for some reason my notes are doubtful on this.
It seems YF-HT was configured to serve boxes etc. where down train reports were important; with AU-HT similarly geared to suit up train messages.
I recorded nothing at WGC referring to any circuit on the Hertford branch, though I've a feeling (very hazy memory) that the concentrator did have another needle/dial with no labelling. Given that line's age, it seems reasonable that it would have been telegraph-provided [ by comparison, the Cuffley-Langley section only became fully operational as we knew it in about 1923/24, and I have never found any clue that the Hertford line circuit (KC-UF) ever extended north of Cuffley through Hertford North to Langley].

Concerning the KX closed-circuit television system which, as mentioned, distributed the up train running information, compiled by the telegraph lad from the telegraph reports, to several important points around the station, I seem to recall that the camera was mounted, pointing straight down, in the top of a three-sided, battleship grey, vertical housing, and the table of up train reports was placed face up in the bottom, for the camera to capture.
Do you know, Mr.Signalman, of the anecdotal tale of the trainee telegraph lad, who was said to have been looking at, shall we say, a 'glamour' magazine, when a senior official suddenly entered the box? Apparently, in a momentary panic, realising he should not be seen looking at such an article, he hurredly threw it aside, to rapidly turn to appearing studious in his duties, and was not then discovered, no doubt breathing a sigh of relief.
However, after some short while, the Regulator (signal box shift supervisor) received a telephone call from the station, maybe from the ASM (Assistant Station Master), going perhaps something roughly along the lines that, although some staff might be enjoying the picture on the screens, others were not (such as the enquiry office, train announcer, telephone enquiry bureau perhaps), and could they please have the up train running sheet back on display! No prizes for guessing where the discarded magazine had landed.


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[James Brodie]

My visits to Kings X were restricted to a few days on December 1960 while from oop north staying with relatives in St.Albans. At least I saw Thompsons attractive Pacifics, machines I never saw when visiting Leeds or York.

I like you-keep those comments coming-I only got to KX once in steam days when I inadvertantly got on a non stop from Newcastle (after saying to the fireman "ride in the train 'till the next station") and when I was a coolie in the passenger link our biggest choo choo was a G5!!!!! I forget the name of the engine I dropped a goolie on but it was an A3. Normally our piece of string only stretched to Doncaster, well. we needed a guide to get home somehow. The driver was a kindly soul and he shared the firing. Legitimately I only worked to KX on Deltics or HSTs My last turns being "The Cleveland Executive" down south-that is ofcourse the up line and up north on the down line with the famous 10-00.

[hq1hitchin]

Controllers had a very responsible job in keeping the railway running and making sure any delays were properly dealt with. It was not a job for amateurs and several men in Control had been there for a number of years.

Very true and the record for Kings Cross must be the legendary Alec Brown, who was a Deputy Chief Controller from 1940 to 1975, starting at Knebworth (to where the LNER moved it's KX District Control at the outbreak of war). Before then he had been a section controller in the Control Office at Kings Cross. A safe pair of hands indeed and his assistant, one Arthur Gilbert, was an out and out expert on running the suburban service.

[thesignalman]

Do you know, Mr.Signalman, of the anecdotal tale of the trainee telegraph lad, who was said to have been looking at, shall we say, a 'glamour' magazine, when a senior official suddenly entered the box? Apparently, in a momentary panic, realising he should not be seen looking at such an article, he hurredly threw it aside, to rapidly turn to appearing studious in his duties, and was not then discovered, no doubt breathing a sigh of relief.
However, after some short while, the Regulator (signal box shift supervisor) received a telephone call from the station, maybe from the ASM (Assistant Station Master), going perhaps something roughly along the lines that, although some staff might be enjoying the picture on the screens, others were not (such as the enquiry office, train announcer, telephone enquiry bureau perhaps), and could they please have the up train running sheet back on display! No prizes for guessing where the discarded magazine had landed.

I only heard that story more recently, it certainly didn't occur when I was there. All I ever did was put my hand in there and wave at the train announcers.

We did go to some lengths to obtain a BBC television test card to stick in there without much luck; in those days photocopiers were in their infancy, never mind digital cameras. Would have been a chuckle.

John

[Mickey]

Deleted

[thesignalman]

Nice one Stevie, i believe i remember there being something written down about (WO) Wood Green No1 suppose to have 'sent on' (freight?) trains on the down (fast) lines to WGC because i think i can just about remember Wood Green No1 sending on 4S83 once or twice?. Also i think WGC suppose to have 'sent on' to (AU) Wood Green up box No4 up the fast line but i don't think in the short time that i was at WGC (1972-74) it was ever done (regular) although come to think about it i recall that i did try calling Wood Green up box No4 once on the S/N telegraph but never got any respones?. After the NX panel was commissioned at WGC in Sept '73 i believe that the S/N telegraph instrument and concentrator remained in the box for awhile although i am fairly sure that it was decommissioned?

There was a booklet of instructions as to who should telegraph trains on to who. If I remember rightly, the only down traffic we wired on from Kings Cross were all light engines to Barnet North box. Quite why, I don't know, but doubtless there was a good reason once. We didn't have many light engines going beyond Wood Green/Bounds Green and on the rare occasions I wired one on I always thought I detected a slight sign of surprise from the man at Barnet!

In most cases wiring-on of passenger trains was only done for late-running traffic.

Most of the "wiring on" related to the fact that on the GN, traffic regulation was 100% the responsibility of the signalmen. The control office were not involved in this and their responsibility on train-running was far more towards the record-keeping side of things. On other lines, signalmen would need to ask permission (or await advice) to turn trains fast or slow line to let traffic pass, but on the GN the signalmen made their own decisions. This led to far more pro-active involvement resulting in efficient operation and mistakes were rarely made. The great thing was that you not only were wired information on late running from key locations, but with the single-needle you could "overhear" advice to other boxes and therefore had an excellent picture of current train activity.

John

[thesignalman]

Entirely understandable Mr. Signalman.

I sign my messages by my name, and as you have known me for a good forty years I'm not quite sure I understand your tone here.

The Kings Cross - Peterboro' circuit cards that I saw showed it to serve (signal boxes unless otherwise stated) :
KC - FO
KC - Kings + T.O. (Telegr.Office)
BX - Kings Cross signal box
PO - Potters Bar
HD - Hatfield No.1
XO - Hatfield T.O.
HH - Hatfield No.2
KR - Knebworth
HF - Hitchin South
HT - Hitchin T.O.
CJ - Crescent Junction (Peterboro')
PE - Peterborough T.O.
EY - Eastfield
FO - (New England 'Office'?)

I have found my notes. Also on this circuit, according to the card at Kings Cross, were:
CV - Holloway Carriage Sdgs
XG - Holloway Office
EG - East Goods Box
XY - East Goods Office
HX- Hornsey Up Goods
CT - Welwyn Garden City
YE - Welwyn North
KG - Knebworth DSO
NX - St Neots
XA - Spital Junction

Some of these I have noted as deleted by the date I was there, but CT isn't (interestingly) one of them. PO, HD, CT & YE are listed as having switches to connect with other circuits.

I also thought WGC was on the AU - HT circuit (Wood Green No.4 to Hitchin T.O., but for some reason my notes are doubtful on this.

My notes show CT as being on that circuit.

i believe i remember there being something written down about (WO) Wood Green No1 suppose to have 'sent on' (freight?) trains on the down (fast) lines to WGC because i think i can just about remember Wood Green No1 sending on 4S83 once or twice?. Also i think WGC suppose to have 'sent on' to (AU) Wood Green up box No4 up the fast line but i don't think in the short time that i was at WGC (1972-74) it was ever done (regular) although come to think about it i recall that i did try calling Wood Green up box No4 once on the S/N telegraph but never got any respones?

According to my notes, CT only wired class 2 and 5 starting from Garden City to Hatfield No2 and No1. It seems odd to telegraph to the next box (!) but this may have been done by phone as the instructions cover phone and telegraph.

Wood Green No1 did indeed wire to CT - classes 1, 3 & 4 which would explain the Freightliners which were originally class 3 but later became 4. Also Barnet North was supposed to wire 2, 6 & 7 trains to CT, Potters Bar was supposed to wire 6, 7, 8 & 9s to CT. Hatfield No2 was supposed to notify CT of all light engines. On the Up, Woolmer Green advised CT of all trains off the Goods Line, Knebworth of any 6, 7, 8 & 9 turned out Slow to main, Stevenage North of any 6, 7, 8, 9 or 0 on the Main, and Hitchin South of class 1 & 3 from the Cambridge branch or starting at Hitchin. I suspect some boxes north of Hitchin supplied main line train information but my notes stop at Hitchin I'm afraid. I never worked north of Garden City and I only covered there one shift!

John

[Mickey]

Deleted

[thesignalman]

That S/N telegraph was a 'wondrous invention' (even still in the early 1970s so what it must have seemed like in the 1870s?) i can still see old Harry Fitzgerald at WGC having a clean up and a shave near the end of a 14:00-22:00 shift one evening back in '72 with the S/N telegraph 'tinkling away' while Harry was still shaving and him saying to me (while still looking in the shaving mirror) that Sandy (s/box) was 'sending on' to Hatfield no.1 several late running up expresses, all the infomation that you needed to know for regulating purposes without having to answer a telephone magic.

If you go back far enough, single-needle was the only means of conversing between boxes. Linking in with the Northern heights discussion, I can confirm (from two signalmen that had worked there) that this was the situation right up to World War II on the High Barnet branch.

Multi-tasking was pioneered on the GN! I knew several signalmen that could be ringing bells and working levers that could simultaneously listen-in to more than one SN message in the background. Very often, when I (as a newly started telegraph boy) was struggling with reading messages and asking for them to be repeated, a signalman would shout over his shoulder exactly what the message was despite have his own work to contend with!

John

[hq1hitchin]

Multi-tasking was pioneered on the GN! I knew several signalmen that could be ringing bells and working levers that could simultaneously listen-in to more than one SN message in the background. Very often, when I (as a newly started telegraph boy) was struggling with reading messages and asking for them to be repeated, a signalman would shout over his shoulder exactly what the message was despite have his own work to contend with!

John

Indeed, John - I never learnt the single needle, unfortunately, even if I did have the LNER booklet 'Let's learn the single needle' with a foreword written by Sir Charles Newton, no less. Duly passed on when I retired. Lovely to think of a signalman talking on the phone, working a frame and still being able to listen to what train was passing where without any effort needed on his part. We know when it died out on the GN, but when did it finish on other parts of the railway - any knowledge, please?

[Mickey]

Deleted

[StevieG]

Entirely understandable Mr. Signalman.

I sign my messages by my name, and as you have known me for a good forty years I'm not quite sure I understand your tone here.

No intended tone to understand there. I had merely failed to notice your signing by name in this forum, and thought I might be ensuring not to possibly reveal your name against your wish.

" I have found my notes. Also on this circuit, according to the card at Kings Cross, were:
CV - Holloway Carriage Sdgs
XG - Holloway Office
EG - East Goods Box
XY - East Goods Office
HX- Hornsey Up Goods
CT - Welwyn Garden City
YE - Welwyn North
KG - Knebworth DSO
NX - St Neots
XA - Spital Junction .... "

Thanks for those; the three "X"x codes, & KG, I didn't previously know of (KG's an interesting one - ever hear of it also officially being for somewhere in KX Goods Yard?).

I also thought WGC was on the AU - HT circuit (Wood Green No.4 to Hitchin T.O., but for some reason my notes are doubtful on this.

My notes show CT as being on that circuit.

... As I strongly suspected. Thanks for confirmation.

According to my notes, CT only wired class 2 and 5 starting from Garden City to Hatfield No2 and No1. It seems odd to telegraph to the next box (!) but this may have been done by phone as the instructions cover phone and telegraph.

- Visited Hatfield 2 many times; don't recall their ever being told which class 2 or 5 it was that was 'on the Block' leaving WGC, unless perhaps, things had gone really topsy turvy.

Wood Green No1 did indeed wire to CT - classes 1, 3 & 4 which would explain the Freightliners which were originally class 3 but later became 4. Also Barnet North was supposed to wire 2, 6 & 7 trains to CT, Potters Bar was supposed to wire 6, 7, 8 & 9s to CT. Hatfield No2 was supposed to notify CT of all light engines. On the Up, Woolmer Green advised CT of all trains off the Goods Line, Knebworth of any 6, 7, 8 & 9 turned out Slow to main, Stevenage North of any 6, 7, 8, 9 or 0 on the Main, and Hitchin South of class 1 & 3 from the Cambridge branch or starting at Hitchin. I suspect some boxes north of Hitchin supplied main line train information but my notes stop at Hitchin I'm afraid. I never worked north of Garden City and I only covered there one shift!

John

I wonder if, by the late 1960s, there might've been some variation between instructions and practice.
Over several visits to Wood Green No.1, I don't recall Class 1's ever being wired on to anyone unless late or running out of course [e.g., "one S seven O, no (1S70 not yet signalled), three S one five, twenty eight" (3S15 passed at 28 mins.past the hour)]. But Class 3 & 4 trains I certainly do recall doing as routine, and looked forward to visits there partly with the expectation of gaining satisfaction from hopefully being able to do a few, error-free.
I certainly remember it seeming to be routine for Barnet North to wire on Class 6s to Hatfield 3 (JV), WGC (CT), Woolmer Green (WG), and Stevenage North (SG). One night provided a particularly good practice in the letter S, when "six N six six, slow, sixteen" had to be sent. I've a feeling Wood Green 1 had to wire some Class(es?) (when late?) to the same set of recipients, preceded by sending also to Potters Bar.
Another short distance 'wiring on' was Hornsey 1 (HE) sending Class 6s leaving Ferme Park yard, to New Southgate (ZP), on the KC-BN (see below).

Wiring on by exception featured in a several places I think. I certainly remember Barnet North being required to wire on late Class 2's to GB (Fins.Park 6), but the circumstances needing it to be done seemed rare during my many visits. Afraid I forget how late they had to be to qualify, though.

Micky,
Regarding that local single-needle circuit at Fins.Park, I remember it well from visits to Fins.Park No.3, where getting 1-3 "Is Line Clear?"-offered on the block bell and accepted (light engine for between north of Holloway, and Bounds Green), if immediately followed by receipt of "L" on that FK-GY S/N circuit, meant that it was one to be put back into 'Clarence Yard' (Finsbury Park Diesel) loco depot.

Did you also recall that there was additionally a GB-HX one of these very local circuits on the signal box block shelves? (Hornsey Up Goods box to Fins.Park No.6 : So, more logically would've been HX-GB)
By the late '60s, with the 24-hour clock well established in the timetables, hearing this circuit used in the evenings for the 'wiring on' (more like 'described' in more modern signalling terms) of Up ECS for Down 'overnight' departures from King's Cross, box-to-box, things could sound a bit laborious because I only heard it done, not by their headcodes, but by their KX departure times, e.g. "twenty two fifteen" (which ECS train was actually headcoded 5S70).

Trying to justify all of this being continued in a thread titled "Kings Cross", there were a few other S/N circuits that I got to know of, which haven't yet had a mention (but like John, I'm sure I haven't the full picture for north of Hitchin), including one more serving King's Cross (aha! - the tenuous link) :

KC-BN [KX Telegr.Office to New Barnet North box ; - served a more localised area, including some boxes on AFAIK no other S/N circuit ; e.g., Holloway South Up (CS), Ferme Pk.North Up (NP), Hornsey 1 (HE) and Hornsey Up Goods (HX; apart from HX being on the above very local 'block shelf' one)] ;

HD-BG (Hatfield No.1 to Biggleswade South) ;
HF-PE (Hitchin South to P'boro' Telegr.Office) ;
?? - ?? (included serving Paxton to Holme - details from a partial circuit card I think)
HF-KM (Hitchin South to Cambridge) ;
PE-GY (P'boro' Telegr.Office to Grimsby Town Office).

[thesignalman]

I wonder if, by the late 1960s, there might've been some variation between instructions and practice.
Over several visits to Wood Green No.1, I don't recall Class 1's ever being wired on to anyone unless late or running out of course [e.g., "one S seven O, no (1S70 not yet signalled), three S one five, twenty eight" (3S15 passed at 28 mins.past the hour)]. But Class 3 & 4 trains I certainly do recall doing as routine, and looked forward to visits there partly with the expectation of gaining satisfaction from hopefully being able to do a few, error-free.
I certainly remember it seeming to be routine for Barnet North to wire on Class 6s to Hatfield 3 (JV), WGC (CT), Woolmer Green (WG), and Stevenage North (SG). One night provided a particularly good practice in the letter S, when "six N six six, slow, sixteen" had to be sent. I've a feeling Wood Green 1 had to wire some Class(es?) (when late?) to the same set of recipients, preceded by sending also to Potters Bar.
Another short distance 'wiring on' was Hornsey 1 (HE) sending Class 6s leaving Ferme Park yard, to New Southgate (ZP), on the KC-BN (see below).

Wiring on by exception featured in a several places I think. I certainly remember Barnet North being required to wire on late Class 2's to GB (Fins.Park 6), but the circumstances needing it to be done seemed rare during my many visits. Afraid I forget how late they had to be to qualify, though.

I feel sure that reality differed from the instructions, my notes were taken from the booklet in the course of my training but in reality I'm sure some of the information was neither needed or wanted! A good example of that were the light engines I diligently wired to BN as mentioned earlier. There is another factor that is probably detailed in the booklet but isn't in my notes (as I expect I probably "took it as read") and that is that I'm pretty sure that unless otherwise specified (e.g. the Class 1s from Crescent Junction, Hitchin South and Hatfield No1 to Kings Cross) passenger traffic was stated to only be wired on if running late (10 minutes+ ??) or out of course, whereas I'm pretty sure (and the memory cells aren't always reliable) that all freight traffic was to be wired owing to its erratic nature.

I originally thought I might have a copy of that booklet, which would be well worth a revisit, but having found how comprehensive my notes were I'm wondering if I didn't actually get a copy for myself.

John

[Mickey]

Deleted

[StevieG]

" .... There is another factor that is probably detailed in the booklet but isn't in my notes (as I expect I probably "took it as read") and that is that I'm pretty sure that unless otherwise specified (e.g. the Class 1s from Crescent Junction, Hitchin South and Hatfield No1 to Kings Cross) passenger traffic was stated to only be wired on if running late (10 minutes+ ??) or out of course, whereas I'm pretty sure (and the memory cells aren't always reliable) that all freight traffic was to be wired owing to its erratic nature. .... "
John

I think you may have got to the nub (or at least one of them) of the matter there, though I recall, when being at Wood Green 4 moderately often, that Hatfield 1's wiring on to there of Class 1s seemed so frequent as to perhaps have been obligatory for all, not just late runners.