BR Steam liveries....lest we forget.

[coachmann]

BR in 1960 may be half a Century ago, yet it is still within living memory or many people and particularly model railway enthusiasts. Even if nothing had been written down by scholars of BR liveries, the period from nationalisation coincided with the availability of colour film for the masses and many things that were indistinct on monochrome film show clearly how they were on colour stock.

Therefore it is galling to see RTR manufacturers going their own way with livery detail and producing innacuracies. This is sometimes the result of manufacturing process but not always. Hornby and Bachmann splasher fronts are produced in BR green and are glued to the splasher 'backing', but because the splasher top is an integral part of the black footplate, we end up with black splasher tops.

When BR adopted Great Western loco green, (renamed BR standard green to avoid regional sensitivities), a lot less black was involved than on GWR engines, and locos presented a greener appearance with green splasher tops, sandbox backing plates, sandbox covers and tender footplating where it was too narrow to walk along. The green on ex-LNER 8-wheel tenders was carried to the coal space. While there is no reason to believe a different specification applied to Gresley tenders with beading, they often look black because beading presented a natural boundary for a cleaners rag!

There were regional differences and no doubt many on here are aware of them. For instance, the cab roof from the cabside to the gutter was generally green, but there were instances where it was clearly painted black and not just left to get filthy. There were also instances of black splasher tops though not on green ex-LMS locos.

From a modelling aspect, it is often a simple matter of touching in the green parts using Phoenix/Precision or Howes Railmatch paints. Nevertheless, there is the danger of sending the wrong messages to future generations.

LG.

[52D]

Entirely valid points in your post Coachman.

[chaz harrison]

BR in 1960 may be half a Century ago....... it is galling to see RTR manufacturers going their own way with livery detail and producing innacuracies.
LG.

Nothing new in this, I'm afraid. It is a pity when models are produced with errors but I am sure it will continue. All one can do is do the research and "mend" the livery to suit.

If the details of the finish are impossible to discern in a photograph of the prototype because of accumulated dirt maybe some good weathering is the solution?

Chaz

[Atlantic 3279]

I imagine there are those (initials TW spring to mind) who might hotly dispute the point about cab roofs being painted green up to the rainstrip in BR days. It is bad enough trying to decide whether this was done to certain locos at certain days in the LNER reign, monochrome "in service" photos often suggesting an all-black roof as you point out, when "official" livery may have been green edges - and there's more contrast between LNER green and black than there is with BR green, so photos should be easier to interpret. I'm glad that I don't have to enter the BR period argument, as I only do BR period models for others, and can then either ask for instructions or simply paint whatever appears to be correct in available photos.

[coachmann]

I imagine there are those (initials TW spring to mind) who might hotly dispute the point about cab roofs being painted green up to the rainstrip in BR days.

Who is TW?

[IAK]

As someone who wants to model early BR its a shame that certain things still slip under the radar.
In this day and age and with the knowledge available there is no need for some of the gaffes which appear to still happen.
Whilst it is difficult to discern things in B&W it can be done - photographers hat on
The point is if in doubt - ASK?

[coachmann]

Some liveries have left some doubt in my mind for years. I am old enough to remember coaches in 'Big Four' liveries and the kick at seeing carmine & cream brightening up the railway scene. I recall the livery change on non-corridor trains was not so pronounced and those lines of coaches in the centre roads in Manchester Victoria's terminal platforms varied from weathered prewar LMS lake on pre-grouping stock, and darker postwar LMS maroon to BR carmine red. Even the latter varied and an ex-works coach always stood out as bright carmine red against earlier repaints that had darkenned somwhat.

But it was the pre-grouping corridor coaches that left me puzzled in later years as to their colour. Why hadn't I taken more notice at the time!!! They were a single colour and initially I assumed that repaints in BR days must have been done all over carmine, a livery that in theory was reserved for parcels and non-corridor coaches. Then I discovered some years ago that some LNWR coaches were touched up or completely painted in LMS colour. This week the cat has been put amongst the pigeons when I viewed a cine film of 1956. A train of ECS had a newly painted ex-LMS Stanier coach in the new post 1956 BR maroon followed by ex-LMS Period I and Stanier coaches in carmine and cream along with two LNWR corridor coaches (one a toplight and the other with older single waist panelling) in all over 'red' that appeared no darker than that on the corridor coaches, ie: carmine.

Question is, does anyone remember pre-grouping corridor coaches on the Eastern Region being given all-over carmine red?

[2512silverfox]

Larry

Generally speaking the ex LNER and GN/ECJS main line stock remained in teak until eventually repainted in carmine and cream. As we have already established, the lettering was a bit of a bastard mix of traditional LNER characters and Gill Sans, but that is another whole subject. Remember also that it was found that paint as used in the early 50s would not readily adhere to a varnished teak finish and this may well have been why there was a lot parching and making do in that period. There are a number of Plant photographs of vehicles with peeling paint demonstrating the problem. Indeed as late as 1976 when we surveyed the Royal BG which is now in the Museum, the claret livery was peeling off almost the whole vehicle and that had been under cover for most of the time.

Other main LNER pregroup stock was revarnished as far as possible from the 30s onwards and if too badly marked to be bleached, painted with the ubiquitous 'teak' paint. Again there seems to have been a policy of make do and mend and quite a few vehicles were not rebranded/repainted until the mid 50s. I am not aware of any intermediate red or maroon livery being used, and have seen no evidence of it, but I am very happy to be proved wrong!

The situation with non corridor stock and NPCS is somewhat more complicated and probably is best described as in your earlier piece about LMS coaches.

[65447]

Question is, does anyone remember pre-grouping corridor coaches on the Eastern Region being given all-over carmine red?

I suspect that you mean passenger-carrying gangwayed stock as opposed to NPCS? The latter were painted in the crimson lake livery, unless regularly rostered into specific named or prestige services when they received crimson and cream.

[coachmann]

I suspect that you mean passenger-carrying gangwayed stock as opposed to NPCS?

Yes, passenger carrying ex-pregrouping corridor coaches. Whilst some ex LYR and MR coaches acquired carmine & cream, I have seen but one photo of an ex-LNWR coach in this livery, a 'Toplight' allocated to the Eastern Region I think. 2512Silverfox has covered constituent ER stock I suspect.

[65447]

AFAIK the only passenger-carrying GER stock to receive crimson and cream, and later maroon, were the various catering vehicles (models covered by Jonathan Wealleans on here and also on RMWeb, as did Stuartp on the latter). The other ex-GER carriages, of which there were quite a few, remained in that muddy red-brownish 'teak' colour.