Blue Circle Cement Trains at Grantham

[James Brodie]

4A and 4S on the Cromptons I think I got the cart before the horse. 4S was for the fully fitted cements towards Scotland not to the Southern. 4A was for ECML trains. The last time I handled a Cropton was on the Southern with a Newspaper train working into pfm 18 at Victoria but that would be in the 70s, I was a GE inspector loc Hamilton Hse at the time. I did get on the Cromptons at York MPD about a decade earlier.
I had just read what I had written moments before I scrolled down the letters and realised my gaff but thanks for drawing my attention to it. By the time I do take my dunces cap off I certainly will have a pointy head.
Jim Brodie.

[StevieG]

Thanks v.m. Jim.
No need to self-chastise. I thought that it could have been correct in some way, at some time, for all I knew. So often there have been strange contradictions to conventions.
For example, I realised that Cromptons displaying 4S might have headed for the Southern before the standard 4-character system was adopted.

[PGBerrie]

Can anyone shed some light on the odd wagon half way down the train in 52A's photo???

Isn't it a second brake van?

Peter

[Multiprinter]

Can anyone shed some light on the odd wagon half way down the train in 52A's photo???

Isn't it a second brake van?

Peter

If you click on the pic to enlarge to full screen it looks like an ordinary van, definitely not a brake van. Possibly a load of bagged cement?

[simonh]

As noted earlier in the thread, probably a cement van
http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c125427.html

as pictured here in the 4S37
http://davesyorkshirerailwayarchive.fot ... 06892.html

Simon.

[60022Mallard]

I have attached a photograph of D6585 + one heading, I believe, south on a winters day.

Can any of those who seem to recognise locations advise where this is. I note a level crossing and believe it is looking north because of the glare point on the front of the loco.

An earlier message says the trains crossed at York around mid-day. Did the locos return south immediately or did they return the next day?

My recollection of the northbound train passing Peterborough in the summer of 62 in the afternoon and never seeing the southbound working there between about 10.30 and 16.30.

Can anyone confirm my recollection?

[Bryan]

Looks like the end of a relay site. Was the photographer in a track gang?
Couple of tools lying on the ballast and what looks like a temporary joint with BR1 spikes and Pandrol F27 sleepers either side of the joint, possibly programmed to extend as mis matched sleepers either side of the joint.

[workev]

I believe that these wagons are PCV cemflo's, did any of the older Presflo wagons run on these trains before 1961 when they were introduced?

Ian

[workev]

Ok,

I am editing my post here. These trains started when the facility at Cliffe was made accesible to rail traffic in 1961, when these PCVs were built especially for the service.

So I wonder whether any trains ran before the PCVs were delivered?

Ian

[workev]

The service stopped in 1969 when the quarries at Cliffe were expleted.

Ian

[workev]

I have just noticed a picture from the Keith Pirt book "Steam Colour Portfolio - Midland & Eastern Lines (Booklaw)" of 9F 92149 (New England) hauling an Up fitted Cement train south of the crossing at Retford in November 1961. The train is made up of Presflos (see the Bachmann models below)

I can only assume that this ran through Grantham, and was the forerunner of the Cliffe service - unless anybody knows differently!

Note that the model from Bachmann is the "snowcrete" version, whereas I cannot determine whether the ones in the photo are; especially as they appear to be bauxite brown, not grey!

Ian

[workev]

Just watched the B&R DVD Along LNER lines Part 3.

In it there is a clip of V2 60814 hauling this train on 13 April 1963, with the cemflo wagons.

I dont know whether its is standing in for failed diesel(s), but seen arriving at Peterborough North.

Ian

[strang steel]

I think the headcodes were sorted earlier in the thread, 4S northbound and 4A southbound.

So the photo is of a southbound service. Remember that the train did not always run via the ECML, I saw it a number of times on the GN&GE especially during the winter time.

The location could be somewhere on this route as well.

[strang steel]

I have just been browsing the Napier-Chronicles website, which is a mine of information on the Deltics.

I discovered that on the 1st December 1966, D9012 Crepello was noted on the southbound cement empties passing Grantham. Headcode 4O92.

The idea that someone somewhere may have a photo of this is perhaps too optimistic?

[strang steel]

More info on these trains, taken from contemporary magazines of the time.

"As from 4th December 1961, the 0230 Class C Holborough (SR) to Uddingston (ScR) and 0245 Class C Uddingston to Holborough are booked to be worked through from the SR to York and back by a pair of D65xx Sulzer diesels.
The load is 28 bulk cement tanks and with the introduction of diesel haulage the train has been greatly accelerated.
It leaves Ferme Park at 0600, and with a two minute stop for crew changing at Peterborough (Westwood) arrives at York (Skelton) at 1040.

The return empties leave York for the south at 1140. On the 4th and 5th of December there were no empties so D6528/D6566 returned L.E. coupled. The following day D6572/D6575 came back with a double load of empties. As these diesels are only equipped with two character headcodes they carry CB from Holborough to Ferme Park and 4A from Ferme Park to York in each direction."

(RO Jan62)

"There have been two unusual instances of double heading on the 0230 Holborough to Uddingston cement train. 92044 (34E) piloted D6513 (73C) on 18th January 1962, and 60106 (34F) piloted D6517 (73C) on 10th February. In both cases this was due to the failure of a Sulzer diesel en route."

(RO Mar62)

"13th August D391 (50A) worked the up cement empties through Finsbury Park"

(RO Sep62)

"The Hither Green Type 3 working to York with the bulk cement train has recently been entrusted to a single unit with mixed results. D6579 failed at Tallington with the down train on 13th August and was later hauled up by a B1. The following day D6550 failed at Barnet, and on the 22nd D6573 failed at Stevenage. On this occasion D5906 assisted the Type 3 forward but failed at Hitchin."

(RO Oct62)

"4th August D6552/D6578 were noted on cement empties passing Sandy"

(RO Nov62)

"92186 came down on the 0255 Cliffe to Uddingston cement on 9th October after a diesel failure. The 0700 Cliffe to Uddingston cement reverted to two diesels (D6542/D6554) on 16th October, but a 9F returned with the empties the following day"

(RO Dec62)

[ That last report seems to suggest that there were two trains each day at one time, departures 0255 and 0700, but it is the first time that has been mentioned, and may be an error ]

"Sometimes the up cement empties is worked by a York V2, 60837 and 60856 were noted on 13th and 16th November."

(RO Jan63)

"The bulk cement trains are now frequently steam worked as not infrequently the Southern diesels return light engine from York. 92034 (34E) worked the down train on 9th December while the empties came up on the 12th behind 60835 (52B). B1s 61251 (34F) and 61361 (40E) worked down on the 8th December."

(RO Feb63)

"D281 (50A) was recorded on the up cement empties on 2nd February 1963, a day when the down train did not run"

(RO Apr63)

"The Cliffe to Uddingston cement train was worked by 60105 (34F) on 19th April, and by 92041 (34E) on 15th May after diesel failures."

(RO Jul63)

[ Edited several times as I work through the magazines ]