Returning to Grantham

[61070]

Rob - I'm aware of the following sources for the track layout in the vicinity of Grantham North (and with apologies if you already know of these):

Grantham North signal box diagram on Richard Pike's website (note - after removal of the engine spur, but possibly the rest of the layout remains largely intact?):
http://richard2890.fotopic.net/p61538675.html

Pages 94-95 of Great Northern Railway Engine Sheds Vol.1 (though not clear in relation to detail)

Republished 1:2500 OS map of Grantham for 1903 (can't always be relied upon absolutely; larger scale OS maps of this and other periods should be available at Lincolnshire Records Office, and possibly at Grantham Library):
http://www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk/lincs11316.htm

There are two of my father's pictures in another place on this forum which also show parts of the layout:
viewtopic.php?t=2710&p=19615#p19615

Below is a third picture taken on the same date as those two, 24th May 1962. Note that the signal indicating 'off' just to the left of the water column relates to the Nottingham line (it's no. 74 on the diagram); the down main line starting signal was a colour light, which is obscured from this angle by the water column.

According to the diagram noted above, the two starting signals for the Nottingham bay (on the lattice post) are 61 (to main line) and 62 (to Nottingham line). I expect, then, that the numbers 17 and 19 on the post could reflect a previous arrangement of the lever frame; interesting stuff.

[StevieG]

Nottingham Bay 'signal numbers':
Hmmm ; good point about 61/62 versus 17/19 : I hadn't looked at RP's diagram photo to check.
For those two to have ever been 17 and 19, one could expect the lever frame to have once been at the 'back' of the box (away from the main line; i.e., along the west side) ; yet where it it was in the 60s is a far more typical GN orientation, so the Nottingham Bay signals would naturally be at the high-numbered end of the frame : So, "17 19" seems to be a new, if minor, quandary.

[ROY@34F]

Re . Rob 237-routes from loco ; I can confirm there were 3 routes . There were three miniature signals to exit the loco , arranged virtically on one post . They must be only just off some of the recent photos . They read "top to the left",as I'm sure most will know . Bottem was to down main , seldom used I think; middle to notts. line , top,I think, to engineers sidings to the west of the notts.line,though I would stand corrected on this. To get to the engine spur you would reverse into it from the notts.line of course. Hope I'm not stating the obvious here ! As for the exact layout-not sure;too long ago I'm afraid .

[52D]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24041160@N ... 423994969/ Hi john have a look at this link its relevant.

George

[rob237]

Rob - I'm aware of the following sources for the track layout in the vicinity of Grantham North (and with apologies if you already know of these):
Grantham North signal box diagram on Richard Pike's website (note - after removal of the engine spur, but possibly the rest of the layout remains largely intact?):

Thanks for your response...
The only other 'removals' in the track layout would seem to be the engine release crossover in the Lincoln bay (dieselisation, just before closure?) and, perhaps more significant to earlier discussion on engine changes, the connection from the down Nottingham - which expedited workings from the shed, through the station, to the up waiting area - just beyond the Yard Box...the connection is illustrated in your Picture 32 on Page 4, Picture 07 on Page 6 and Picture 09 on Page 10.

The familiar picture of loco's awaiting departure from the platform end invariably reveals only the starter signal and the pair of Y points beyond...the 'grey area' is obviously behind the box, where the shed, platform, spur and bay routes effectively split is - for obvious reasons - less often pictured...I have a picture taken of that general view, but the A4's drifting smoke rather clouds an appreciation of the specific pointwork!

Thanks to Roy for confirming the 3 routes to the down spur...

Cheers
Robt P.

[61070]

George – very many thanks for that link. I think it must establish 'beyond all reasonable doubt' that 61835 is correctly recorded in my notebook on 1st August 1963, as Andy W has already indicated (see bottom of page 15). It's noted as one of the last observations on that visit, along with two other steam locos, so maybe it/they arrived from Peterborough late in the afternoon? Given 61835's location when photographed on 10th August, on the west side of the former old shed, if it had been in that location on 1st August it's unlikely that I would have seen it from the platform - unless the road nearer the station, occupied by a carriage in the picture, had been clear. However, I have photos which show that the same road was occupied on 1st August too, possibly by the same carriage (see page 15, July 11th post, photo 2).

Perhaps on 1st August all three steam locomotives were en route to Doncaster in convoy when 61835 ran hot - its bearings are very likely to have suffered while it was standing outside as a stationary boiler. The identity of the other two locomotives is indistinct in my notebook, having been overwritten, but one of them would appear to have been a V2, 6090x, and the other an ex-LNER type (6xxxx).

By the way, I think the photo caption should say that 61835 was withdrawn (from normal service) in September 1962, not 1963.

Rob, another thought re. Grantham North track layout - have you seen images 46 to 52 in Colin Walker's Trails of Steam Volume 6 - Trails Through Grantham, especially 49 and 50 which show well the 'grey area' you speak of?

52D's post has reminded me to mention a site called Heritage Images that Landscapes recently drew attention to in another thread (a3-60060-the-tetrarch-t4189.html)
Putting 'Grantham' into the search box on the Heritage Images site I found the following:
http://www.heritage-images.com/Preview/ ... 98&orntn=2 (note the dilapidated condition of the shed)
http://www.heritage-images.com/Preview/ ... 63&orntn=2
http://www.heritage-images.com/Preview/ ... 61&orntn=2
I tried both 'Retford' and 'Peterborough' in their 'search' box, and good quality railway images appeared both times.

[Andy W]

Your V2 would have (probably) been either of 60902 or 60905, both of which were Doncaster machines at the time. For info, 60902 was Kylchap DC fitted. Both were withdrawn in the purge of ER V2 locos in September 1963.

[Andy W]

Back to the 1960 Freight WTT for the Highdyke pilots, all noted as "To work trips on branch".

No 1 Branch 6.20 a.m. to 10.0 p.m. Monday to Saturday.
No 2 Branch 6.20 a.m. to 10.0 p.m. Monday to Saturday.
No 3 Branch 10.0 p.m. to 6.0 a.m. Monday to Friday.

Looking at the WTT itself, as Roy has remembered so well, the branch relief left Grantham EBV at 1.35 p.m. arriving at Highdyke at 1.50 p.m. The return working left Highdyke at 2.22 p.m. arriving back at Grantham at 2.33 p.m.

I have "done" my Yeadons looking at the smaller classes allocated to Grantham that could have worked the Grantham pilot duties, as mentioned in an earlier reply. Between 1956 and 1963 these included examples from J52, J68, J69, A5, C12, N2, L1, J6 (and LMS 4MT). There was a gap between the departure of the J52 and the arrival of the J68/9 locos.

p.s. the October British Railways Illustrated has a shot of 61251 (34F) coming through Retford on a class D in August 1963.

[61070]

Thanks Andy W for the further intelligence on the likely ID of the V2 and on the pilot duties. The High Dyke branch was clearly busy with traffic to warrant such cover over the entire 24-hour period.
I think that pilot work is an oft-neglected area of study, but it's one about which, in my experience, locomotive men often have a lot to say. It was on these jobs that they really began to pick up the fundamentals of railway operating - perhaps while father or uncles watched on, and where, later, they might see their own sons or nephews taking the first steps in their driving careers. Some of the men also, for various reasons, finished their days before retirement 'back on the pilots'. So the pilots and their work certainly deserve a place in the story of the shed.

There's been a bit of interest in the Lincoln bay, then designated as platform 1 (it's the only former platform face no longer in use at Grantham). We didn't spend much time at that end of the station. Visiting in the afternoon, the light was usually better for photography elsewhere. Also there wasn't much on offer in terms of views of the shed, yards etc, and there were no cabins to inhabit during lulls in activity.

Here, though, are two pictures taken consecutively on 16th April 1964 which, I hope, will appeal to the 'Lincoln bay' audience, although only a glimpse of the bay is afforded in each.

1. Luggage, including Parcel Post bags, is transferred to and from a Derby-built DMU, with driving trailer composite car E56000 at the north end.

2. What was the item being delivered to the Pullman Steward by a member of the station staff? An important message for a businessman on board? Or maybe it was a pools coupon.

3. Here's 61389 lying over in the down yard on the same date. The coaling stage behind awaits the demolition squad (along with most of the other shed buildings, now seven months since closure). But note the smoke drifting from the two stovepipes behind the B1, indicating that the old fitters' shop remains inhabited. As we know from later pictures it was still standing in 1965 when the rest had gone.

[rob237]

Interesting that the Lincoln bay loco release pointwork did remain in situ, even into the dieselisation era.
Could have been just prior to removal, as it isn't featured in the Grantham North signal box diagram...
Cheers
Robt P.

[strang steel]

E56000 was paired with MBS E50000 which had two Rolls Royce 238 hp engines and hydraulic transmission.

The other units in the class had B.U.T. engines and mechanical gearboxes. They were classified as 'blue square' for multiple unit operation, but I think that E50000/56000 were 'blue star' and therefore could not work in multiple with the rest of the class - hence their early withdrawal in 1967.

We used to identify this pair purely by sound, as there were no gear changes when accelerating from a station stop unlike all the others in the class, just a continuous noise from the engines.

I presume that the Pullman service is the Sheffield Pullman because I dont think any other Pullman train stopped at Grantham in those days.

John

[StevieG]

Without knowing when this pair were equipped with those engines and transmission, sounds like they just might have been a fore-runner of the later BR/Derby units, so-equipped, which we, in the KX Div.Control referred to as the 'Rolls units' when we got them at Finsbury Park (1969/70-ish?) after their displacement from the 'Lea Valley' line services by electrification; their main maintenance was still done at Stratford depot though.

[strang steel]

I think E50000/56000 were built with them in 1957, but will have to check - so they most likely were a test bed for the Lea Valley 3-car units (class 125) that you describe StevieG.

Also the same engine and hydraulic transmission units were employed in the 4-car class 127 units that ran between St Pancras and Bedford.

John

(Edited to say that they seem to have been delivered with the RR engines during March/April of 1957)

[61070]

Fascinating revelation about the DMU's non-standard engine and transmission. My comment on its number had really only been a throwaway remark as it was 'first in class', and I thought that was all there was to it. It's been said before, but you never know where some of the detail in these pictures is going to lead!

I'm sure the Pullman service is The Sheffield Pullman.

[60022Mallard]

Possibly getting slightly off topic but I "copped" the pair on Stratford depot some time after the withdrawal date given above. A source of spare parts for the Lea Valley units?