workev wrote:Does anybody know if the Yeadons registers have shed allocations? I hope to get into Ian Allan in Manchester and have a look, but would be good to know. If Andy Ws list of 1960 pilots is anything to go by then there were smaller engines at 34F up to 1960 at least, but photographs of pilots at work are few and far between.
Ian
I posted allocations here for 1923 and 1948 on Sep 4, if those are of any interest.
Kudu, I saw that post thanks, but 1948 is a bit early for my research period. But, interesting to see that the smaller engines were used for a lot of shunting for a long while at what essentially a station with a shed!
It appears that the A4s left Grantham between 1948 and 1950, probably as the A1s came on stream and the A4s moved to Kings Cross. 34F seemed to get A1s and A2s instead, as well of course the A3s!
Thanks gents.i have to agree wiyh your conclusions.I was on loan at KX top shed for 2 years,up to dec.'60.there may well have been N2s at grantham,but not for long,I feel,as you say.when I came back home,the L1s were much in evidence at Grantham.I was often on them to derby.they were terribly rough riding at speed,between stations.They were also used on coach shunt,H/dyke c/o.,as previously discussed,and the "old yard"Ambergate job.Ithink we had 3 B1s at least at that time.I remember 61389/92/67.By that time,also has has been said,all the Lincoln and Boston trains were DMUs.
A diary entry of mine you may find interesting: Wed.,and Thurs.March 3 and 4.'63,I signed on at 2p.m.,and ,with a Grantham B1,61392, went to Retford and back,via Lincoln, with 4 different Drivers! Must,clearly, have been a DMU working.surely the "big freeze"was over by then?
I wonder if the N2s were brought in as a replacement for the A5s, but were found to be unsuitable?
I know there were some experiments at Kings Cross because the N2s had trouble starting commuter trains on the Hotel Curve. A Grantham A5 was tried and I think it had some success but did not have the power for ex main line ECS workings up the bank at Wood Green.
I would have to read 'Top Shed' again, but I think they eventually used 2 L1s on the heaviest trains, but when the first type 2 diesels appeared they would have released tank engines from certain suburban workings and the L1s could be sent to Grantham to replace the N2s.
Sorry that I am speculating somewhat, but L1s did have a decent turn of speed on the flat - so Grantham to Nottingham would be an ideal service for them.
strang steel makes an interesting point re the N2s and it seems also that the dieselisation programme had a great affect on allocations at Grantham.
If the Type 2s replaced the L1s at KX, the N2s were effectively redundant and withdrawn leaving the need for a loco to work some services at Grantham. What seems strange to me is that the DMUs had taken over services to the East, but steam still ruled towards Nottingham.
It would appear that it was only when the DMUs finally took over Nottingham services that 34F lost its smaller engines, which meant the end of the shed as the pacifics left as well.
Grantham shed it seems reflected the changing face of railways in the 1950s/60s, not only from the through trains with the Deltics, but also the shift from steam to diesel.
Mention of A5s has jogged my memory. In issue 266, August 2009, Steam World published an article titled 'Memories of a Telegraph Lad' which was written by Ken Hook. He recalled working in 'boxes at Grantham, and I exchanged a couple of emails with Ken. In one of them he said: 'One of my memories of Grantham North was when an A8 tank locomotive was derailed right outside of the rear of the box and almost finished up in the roadway by the bridge. It was still off the road when I had finished my shift and when I returned 12 hours later they were just re-railing her.'
If the Type 2s replaced the L1s at KX, the N2s were effectively redundant and withdrawn leaving the need for a loco to work some services at Grantham. What seems strange to me is that the DMUs had taken over services to the East, but steam still ruled towards Nottingham.
It would appear that it was only when the DMUs finally took over Nottingham services that 34F lost its smaller engines, which meant the end of the shed as the pacifics left as well.
Grantham shed it seems reflected the changing face of railways in the 1950s/60s, not only from the through trains with the Deltics, but also the shift from steam to diesel.
Ian
Yes Ian, this has always intrigued me as well. Especially because the LMR local services from Nottingham were turned over to diesels by the early 1960s. I remember there were 3-car Cravens units working Derby and Leicester stopping services, and Swindon X Country units on local trains to Lincoln St Marks.
There must have been forward planning that we have no knowledge of (unless we scour the minutes of executive meetings at the BRB) and maybe Grantham shed was pencilled in for closure some years earlier, and because of that there would be little point training the depot staff in diesel repairs/maintenance when there was no long term future except as a stabling point.
So, the steam duties were concentrated there, although greatly reduced. Again, this is really just speculation. It would be great to do the research and maybe produce a book on the history of Grantham station and shed, with the help of as many ex-employees as possible, but finding the time and money is the main constraining factor.
strang steel wrote:I wonder if the N2s were brought in as a replacement for the A5s, but were found to be unsuitable?
I know there were some experiments at Kings Cross because the N2s had trouble starting commuter trains on the Hotel Curve. A Grantham A5 was tried and I think it had some success but did not have the power for ex main line ECS workings up the bank at Wood Green.
You are right about an A5 being tried at Kings Cross, from memory it was 69814. As far as I can remember that was the only one sent there, and it had nothing to do with the difficulty that N2s had restarting from platform 16. I doubt if the A5 would have fitted in the Hotel Curve tunnel, it was a much bigger engine than an N2. The restarting problem was an everyday occurrence and over the years they had got used to living with it. It only really caused headaches during the evening peak rush hour when timekeeping was more important. In the late 1950s the practice was to have spare N2s available and standing in the KX engine yard, and when certain trains from Moorgate stopped in platform 16 one of these spare N2s would back down and double head the train engine. This was done very swiftly and then restarting was easy, the train would be on its way on time. My favourite train was a Hertford service that left KX at about 17.30, more or less the same time as the Yorkshire Pullman with an A4 departed from the main terminus. With any luck the two trains would be in Gasworks Tunnel side by side, and the windows of our quad-art would be pulsating to the 3-cylinder rhythm of the Pacific. The N2 had better acceleration though and we would usually beat the Pullman as far as Finsbury Park where we would watch the A4 storm past as it got into its stride.
Last edited by Flamingo on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You are right Flamingo, and it teaches me a lesson not to try and post using memory, but to go back to the books and re-read the relevant paragraphs before pressing the send button.
The A5s (there were two tried apparently, 69814 and 69824 ) were there to trial on the ECS of the overnight sleeper services which had to be taken back to the carriage sidings, but did not have the power required for Wood Green bank. B1s were also tried, and it would seem that double heading was the only answer. Peter Townend alludes to a request for ex-GWR 2-8-0 tanks to be tried (which would have really put the cat amongst the pigeons) but none ever turned up.
There is a photo of 69814 at Kings Cross shed in the book Top Shed, and one of 69824 standing on the loco spur by Gasworks Tunnel in the book BR Steaming On The East Coast Main Line.
Sorry to be going O/T but it does have a link with Grantham.
The ECS workings to Bounds Green could be handled OK by an N2 provided they did not get stopped at Waterworks. If they got a run at the bank they could get over the flyover, albeit at no more than walking pace, but hanging 500 tons or more on the back of an N2 was a big ask. The L1s slipped too easliy and needed double heading to be certain of making the climb. I would have thought the As would be a good engine for that job, with their higher tractive effort than the N2 and more weight than the L1. I liked the A5s, we used to travel to Princes Risborough behind them on the suburban service from Marylebone before Neasden got flooded with L1 Cement Mixers. They slipped on starting even with a 5 or 6 coach train, but were good for a footplate ride at Risborough during the run-round.
According to Townend, the problems only really started when a 15mph speed limit was imposed on the back roads through Wood Green. This meant that locos could not get a run on the bank. He says that the A5s had a better adhesive ratio of 5.09, but not enough tractive effort to get 460 tons up the 1 in 51.
I looked through a few Railway Observers for 1960 and 69814 is mentioned a couple of times working local services from Kings Cross but without much detail, then it is listed as withdrawn in the Dec 1960 issue, but with its allocation given as Colwick.
What 69824 was doing I dont know, as the photo I mentioned above was taken 2 years earlier in 1958. I may have to rummage through a few more mags to see if there is any clue.
[quote="Flamingo] " .... nothing to do with the difficulty that N2s had restarting from platform 16. .... " " .... The restarting problem was an everyday occurrence and over the years they had got used to living with it. It only really caused headaches during the evening peak rush hour when timekeeping was more important. In the late 1950s the practice was to have spare N2s available and standing in the KX engine yard, and when certain trains from Moorgate stopped in platform 16 one of these spare N2s would back down and double head the train engine. This was done very swiftly and then restarting was easy, the train would be on its way on time. " .... [/quote]One starting headache here to be avoided was that of slipping back too much during unsuccessful restarting attempts, as one of the Hotel Curve's two catch points was only a few yards off the south end of plat.16, virtually in the tunnel mouth: Not an easily accessible place for dealing with a run-back derailment, I'd imagine.
StevieG wrote: One starting headache here to be avoided was that of slipping back too much during unsuccessful restarting attempts, as one of the Hotel Curve's two catch points was only a few yards off the south end of plat.16, virtually in the tunnel mouth: Not an easily accessible place for dealing with a run-back derailment, I'd imagine.
1t must have required good judgement and co-ordination by the footplate crew. Usually only one instance of setting back was enough, two if they were unlucky. One incident I witnessed when they were really unlucky involved 69588 which set back at least 6 times until at last it decided to move forwards. They must have been perilously close to those catch points.
I have been digging around looking for my Xpress Publishing Locomotive Register for Eastern Locos, and found it last night. I will add some detail to my earlier post, at least between 1950 and 1960, in future posts.
On first glance I see that several L1s were also allocated to Colwick shed (40E); I assume they worked some of the services to Grantham (and Lincoln area?), as well as other services from Nottingham.
I can also confirm that the last two A4s (60015 and 60026) left Grantham (35B as it was then) in September 1951, but that 4 locos (60003, 60008, 60010 and 60030) were allocated to 34F between April and September 1957. I am trying to see if a number of locos left for works attention so will see if anything is obvious, but does anybody else know?
