Returning to Grantham

[workev]

Given the number of spotters on this thread, did any of you write down the formations of any of the Pullman workings you saw. I have been scouring forums of many kinds, have lists of workings from Tommy's Pacifics website, but nobody seems to have written down the actual coaches on any workings.

Any help or loaction of such information would be appreciated.

Ian

[61070]

Ian - there's been some discussion recently of ECML Pullman train formations on this thread: e-c-m-l-tynes-tee-pullman-circ-1955-p31593.html , whose correspondents may be able to advise.

I did note down some Pullman car names and numbers – listed in the Ian Allan Combined Volumes they were legitimate 'spotting targets'! However, my notes are of limited value, without supporting information or research, because (i) I seldom noted the service, or even its direction of travel and (ii) it was usually possible to note only a selection of cars per train, especially on services passing at speed and when the locomotive number was, naturally, the main priority. It was better if you were part of a group, and so could allocate members of the team to specific tasks but, as a lone spotter, albeit with my father's help if I asked him in time, identifying, committing to short term memory and then writing down an entire train of vehicles was too much (even allowing for the quicker mind of younger days!).

There is an example of the type of information I have from this period in my post of July 14 at 11:07 on page 15. Other examples include, on a previous occasion, 27th June 1963, D6800 + Car No.78 (most likely the up The Sheffield Pullman); D9003 followed by Magpie and Raven, and D9005 followed by Swift, Ruby and Heron. Jumping forward, on 9th April 1964 DP2 appears to have hauled Car No.333, Car No.79, Nilar, Car No.350, Car No.336, Pearl, Belinda and Amber.

On with the narrative to 19th September 1963. 60112, which had been the backdrop to our portrait of some of the shed staff just seven weeks earlier (on 1st August - see page 14), is back on stage. It appears in the Goods Loop with a down Class 5 partly-fitted freight, which it sets back into an adjacent siding before uncoupling and running forward to turn, presumably either on the shed 'angle', if it was still in commission, or at Barkston Junction. We then see it passing through the station on the up main line.

1. Arrival in the Goods Loop. The shed has been closed for ten days and its buildings and facilities appear, deserted and forlorn, in the background of this picture and the next.

2. Now on the adjacent line and a little further south, 60112 draws forward from its train, its headlamps having been correctly repositioned for a light engine movement. The side of the 'New Shed' building appears between the tender and the van. If you are like me you probably want to reach into this picture to grab that 'pop' bottle standing up at the lineside and get the deposit back.

3. Entering the station from the north.

On this occasion 60112 still bears a 34F (Grantham) shedcode plate, although it had been transferred to Doncaster on 9th September. It would again be transferred, to New England, on 20th October as I understand from Andy W's post of July 3rd. I wonder if it ever carried a '36A' plate during its 6-week allocation to Doncaster?

Another point to observe from these pictures is that 60112 bears evidence of preparation for its excursion to Weymouth on The Southern Counties Enterprise from London Waterloo which had taken place on 25th August (see http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/630825sc.html and my post on page 15 of this thread). Picked out in white paint are the shedcode plate details, the numberplate bolt heads, two of the smokebox door upper hinge strap rivets and the door knob, and the buffer heads. While the locomotive's paintwork has by this time become a little grimy again, there's been an attempt to maintain its appearance as someone has made a start on cleaning the boiler cladding.

[strang steel]

More excellent photos, and the hint of a question that I would love to know the answer to; namely when did the last loco (or train) use Barkston Junction as a triangle?

I know that I never saw anything use the North to East curve after 1963 in my times of trainspotting. However, I was only an intermittent visitor and from my usual haunt by the old station site (opposite the South Junc signalbox), I could not see the state of the tracks over the far side. They may have been in situ for many years, but just unused.

I do remember that the East to North curve did seem to retain some old somersault signals even after all of the rest of the signalling had been converted to upper quadrant or colour lights. I have a WTT somewhere that seems to suggest a E to N working but I cant find it at present, or I may have just misread it.

John

[AndyRush]

Barkston North Curve last used 11.09.1970, formally closed 01.05.1972 according to Stewart Squires in The Lincoln to Grantham Line via Honington, Oakwood Press, 1996

Regards

Andy

[strang steel]

Thanks Andy.

I do have that book, but never thought to look in there for the answer.

[workev]

Folks,

I am trying to get to get info on the loco changes that took place at Grantham, which I assume was the main reason for having a depot in the town in the first place. I seem to recall that changes occured to help prevent engine failures; but how did it work in practice?

Was it strictly for trains to Newcastle and beyond from KX, or were Yorkshire services subject to change as well? I assume also that this happened with freight turns as well given the photos of WDs on shed.

Does anybody know of any WTTs (or anything else) that show this information, and if so does it show the types of loco used?

Did any loco diagrams at Grantham involve anything other than changeovers on ECML expresses (except for local services)?

More questions to follow!

Ian

[workev]

And also, does anybody have records of 8fs or Britannia's making it to or through Grantham?

Ian

[rob237]

Brits certainly did...

I have a picture of Hereward the Wake awaiting departure with a down parcels, presumably in its Immingham days...

Recall that Grantham Brits get a mention earlier in the thread.

Cheers
Robt P.

[rob237]

Folks,
I am trying to get to get info on the loco changes that took place at Grantham...

Be assured that passenger loco changes were a regular feature on almost every main line stopper...
Donny, Leeds and Hull traffic often provided the exceptions.
Peterborough was also a regular changing point, in either direction.
A considered, and detailed, response would run to about 17 sheets of foolscap (can't put A4, dreadful pun...)

Cheers
Robt P.

[giner]

Yes, my uncle Jim who was firing out of the Cross after the war until his career was terminated by an unfortunate accident, often mentioned Grantham as a changing point. I was too young at the time to understand what the talk was about, but Grantham almost became some mythical place on the other side of the world to me. Doubt it attained that status with crews, though.

[strang steel]

I suspect that an occasional Stanier 2-8-0 must have made a visit to Grantham, although I never saw one there. I did see them between Sleaford and Boston but they would presumably have worked via the Nottingham line under the ECML at Barkston.

However, I would imagine that one must have turned up on a freight from the MR at some stage.

I will see if I can find anything in the ROs that I have.

John

Edited because the first report didnt take too long to find, although it seems to be of a through working.

48397 was seen on the 5.45 p.m. Doncaster-New England goods 30th August 1960.

[workev]

A considered, and detailed, response would run to about 17 sheets of foolscap (can't put A4, dreadful pun...)

Robt P.

Robert,

Not necessarily after a full change record, I have lots of books that state some of the sevices, but not anything definitive. I had assumed that the WTT would show these things, but not yet got hold of one (they rarely come up on eBay). I will try the RCTS archives to see if they have any info as well.

This thread is the best source of info I have yet to find, so will hope that someone out there can help! The main reason is to see what locos worked in from further north, I think Heaton locos worked in on the Northumbrian and Flying Scotsman.

I cannot find much info at all on freight workings, yet pictures of Grantham shed show WDs and 9Fs, so what did they take over?

Glad to know 8Fs worked the line as well (be they rare)....

Tried to email Grantham Library, but no reply yet.

Ian

[strang steel]

Another 8F

48100 on the 5.57 a.m. class H Doncaster to New England - 3rd Nov 1960



The RO lists 92168 on the 4.52 a.m. class E New England to Doncaster 28th Nov 1959, so maybe the occasional one at Grantham shed has failed en-route working these kinds of services.

I have not found any references to freight locos on Yorkshire to KX Goods or Ferme Park, being changed at Grantham but will keep looking. Some of the services ran via the GN&GE anyway.

There is a report of 92202 of Immingham appearing on the 12.55 a.m. Inverkeithing to KX Goods on the 17 Dec 1959, but it does not say at what point the loco took over the train.

John

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

Ian,
you will possibly have more success with Grantham Museum as they have shown a great deal of interest in the work of 61070's father and have held some very good events including an evening with 61070 and I believe his sister was also present.
As for freight workings for Grantham loco's and Frotheringham & Mexborough visitors there was of course the Iron Ore Trains from the High Dyke branch. They were the life line of the O2's for many years,followed by WD'S and dare I mention on here the Brush Type 2 (Class 31) Diesels in the mid 60's.
The branch coming in from Nottingham also brought coal trains from the Nottinghamshire coalfields for Peterborough and Ferme Park yards and obvoiusly returning empties in the opposite direction. 9F's from Annersley and WD's were quite often the more modern steam engines but O1,O2 & O4 variants were also used. Doncaster and New England 9F's were fairly regular passing visitors going through on fitted freights.
Regards,Derek.

[61070]

I can't add much to the very interesting discussion on locomotive changes etc. When we began our visits to Grantham in earnest in 1963 we seldom saw a locomotive exchange taking place, and the passenger shunters seemed to enjoy quite a relaxed life! I expect that wouldn't have been the case in previous years.

Yes, I do remember that slide show at Grantham Museum very well, 60129. The evening of 18th October 2008 it was. Do you recall that we had an amazing live steam accompaniment at one point, when the exhaust beats of 46233 came drifting in through the open windows? It was starting out of the station returning to Nottingham from King's Cross on The London Explorer. Even if it was a 4-cylindered red engine, it was a moment of sheer magic.

Moving on to 3rd October 1963. The rather lengthy captions have been written with the non-specialist audience of the museum in mind, but it's easier for me to paste them in their entirety than to edit out the bits that will be obvious to most readers of this forum. As ever, observations and corrections are welcome.

1. The wagons of this southbound Class 8 mineral train are sheeted because they are carrying a consignment which needs to be protected from the weather. Class 9F locomotive No.92044 is based at Colwick (40E) motive power depot in Nottingham. The time is 3:57pm, according to the station clock.

2. Looking south, the building on the right included the Carriage & Wagon Examiners’ cabin in the centre and the Passenger Shunters' cabin at the south end, which were ‘home’ for us on our trips to Grantham. The nearer end was the lamp room, where the many types of oil lamp used on the railway around Grantham (signal lamps, train head and tail lamps, guards' and shunters' handlamps, etc.) were filled and trimmed. Staff also kept their mopeds there.

The building is illustrated in the May 1996 edition of BackTrack (Vol. 10, No.5), with the caption: Maps drawn around the turn of the century show that this wooden structure contained a guards' room, a 'grease house' and a room for footwarmers. Grantham was a changeover point for the latter and the necessary water was boiled inside this building. This tradition of a supply of boiling water always at the ready carried on into the 1960s as the C&W Examiners' kettle was continually simmering on its gas ring.

The buildings on the left skyline are maltings, and beyond them is the works of Ruston & Hornsby Ltd. Although at first sight, apart from the man in the foreground, the scene appears to be deserted, careful study reveals several figures on or about the tracks in the far distance.
The Yard Box signal box on the left controls all the points and signals immediately south of the platforms. Next to it is the colour light up starting signal, at which freight trains could be diverted onto the up slow line that ran parallel to the main lines as far as High Dyke sidings. A subsidiary signal indicated access to the goods yard.

The South Box signal box can just be discerned in the far distance, to the right of the main line tracks.

3 & 4. These two are for Flamingo, as promised back in April - sorry for the wait.

Train 1B21 was the 15:20 from Sheffield Victoria to London King’s Cross The Sheffield Pullman.

The locomotive is No.D0260 Lion, a unique experimental diesel electric locomotive design of 1962 which was a partnership between the Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. of Smethwick (frame, body and bogies), Sulzer Bros. of Switzerland (the diesel engine) and AEI of Sheffield (generator and motors). It carried …a unique, and startling, all-over white livery with five narrow gold bands running along the lower half of each bodyside, gold cabside numbers, and a distinctive nameplate incorporating the names of the three companies involved in the project in etched black lettering.

Having been used at first mainly on the Western Region, from Sept 1963 Lion was based at Finsbury Park traction maintenance depot in north London and worked trains out of King’s Cross.

[ref: http://www.class47.co.uk/c47_feature_425.php]

The steam issuing from beneath the front of the locomotive is leaking from a steam heating connection. In winter carriages were heated by steam from the locomotive; when diesel and electric locomotives were brought in they had to be equipped with a small boiler for heating the train. Gradually carriages were built with electric heating, so that in the 1970s the anachronism of diesel and electric locomotives being fitted with a steam boiler came to an end.