Tornado Failure

[Bryan]

Extra costs and finding extra crews.

This is probably the main reason for not having engine activity between trains.
Consider the coal costs alone for having an engine just sitting around or doing minor shunts.
About a tonne to fire up in the morning add another 2 - 3 for the day.
Now work on about £200 a tonne and you can see why they don't have engines sitting idle anymore.

[strang steel]

Another and purely mercenary reason: you don't want visitors standing outside on platforms watching shunting taking place - you want them in your souvenir shops or catering facilities spending money. Sorry, but that's a fact of life, without cash flow your railway can be as realistic as it aspires to be; it just won't be able to afford to run, that's all.

Ok. But this just boils down to boring the pants off visitors in the hope that they will empty their wallets in the gift shop.

Are there any reliable statistics that show that customers treated in this way actually spend much, or ever return again at a future date?

At least it is a comfort to have my suspicions confirmed.

John

[S.A.C. Martin]

Another and purely mercenary reason: you don't want visitors standing outside on platforms watching shunting taking place - you want them in your souvenir shops or catering facilities spending money. Sorry, but that's a fact of life, without cash flow your railway can be as realistic as it aspires to be; it just won't be able to afford to run, that's all.

Ok. But this just boils down to boring the pants off visitors in the hope that they will empty their wallets in the gift shop.

Are there any reliable statistics that show that customers treated in this way actually spend much, or ever return again at a future date?

At least it is a comfort to have my suspicions confirmed.

John

John, I have to say I find this comment to be loose at best with the reality of the situation. Most railways in preservation are struggling to make ends meet at the moment - and, I might suggest politely, that many more people go for a day out in the country and to see the single steam engine in action, than there are enthusiasts who would appreciate the ideas you have expressed, and would be willing to pay for the day out.

I can honestly say that I would rather keep our bread and butter at the GCR - the families on the day out - than have to deal with the worst kinds of "enthusiasts" and photographers, who forget to some extent that we have a railway to run, that can't operate itself on just goodwill alone. The families at the very least put a few coppers in the coffers - which, if the railway were simply run for the benefit of photographers, I can guarantee we wouldn't see half as much.

Don't get me wrong mind - I know there are thoughtful, mindful photographers out there in the railway world. But the majority I saw, when volunteering at Q&W, were those of the distinctly distasteful nature, not ones to help but to think the railway is run for their benefit. Perhaps my experiences have coloured me there. My apologies for any bitterness, but I feel the point stands. You cannot run a preserved line based just on attracting enthusiasts.

[Mickey]

It is strange how things change down the years from when they first started out. Back in early 1970 i can remember listening to a BBC radio programme about the then fledgling Dart Valley railway which was then basically being run by a small group of dedicated and like minded railway enthusiasts that had acquired a stretch of railway straight off the back of the abandonment of steam by B.R. and had acquired several steam locomotives and some rolling stock and that was it. Back then it was hard to visualize how the preservation movement would flourish and grow over the coming decades and being a railway enthusiast in 1970 was a rather lonely hobby with only the Railway World and Railway Magazine to keep up to date with what was going on in the railway world. Now forty years on preserved railways attract large groups of people that may only have at best a passing interest in railways or none at all and who regard visiting somewhere like the Dart Valley railway as just another 'heritage centre' for a day out with the wife & kids and to be able to ride on a choo-choo train. Was that really the aim of the founding member's?.

[James Brodie]

Nowt wrong with the Southern! I saw a Southern engine once-it was green.

no comment on the A1 'cos they went faster than 25mph and we might have got nose bleeds but nice to have a remark made appreciating us steam men and the conditions we worked under. But I would do it all again, my only regret is my time wasn't long enough. Give a thought as well to the monkey hangers as their Q6s front glands blew so much they would run tank first to Newport then get half a turn to work back home.

In the early days the loco brake blocks were made of wood and the men of steel, now I can remember working an engine with wooden brake blocks. Is this why my memory is getting a bit rusty?
Jim Brodie.

[Flamingo]

[/quote]Ok. But this just boils down to boring the pants off visitors in the hope that they will empty their wallets in the gift shop.

Are there any reliable statistics that show that customers treated in this way actually spend much, or ever return again at a future date?

At least it is a comfort to have my suspicions confirmed.

John[/quote]

From my local steam railway ( I worked as a volunteer long enough to get a long-service badge until health reasons curtailed my activitiies) we had plenty of evidence from visitor interviews and surveys that repeat visits are quite normal and both adults and children alike look forward to coming again. I suspect that virtually every other competently run visitor attraction, railway or not, would say the same. If they cannot, then there is something wrong.

[strang steel]

Please, Flamingo and Smierski, dont get me wrong. I am not trying to belittle the efforts that thousands are putting into preserved railways. I am just trying to make an alternative point, maybe Devils Advocate if you like, from a more 'anorak' viewpoint.

My thought was that us older folk who remember BR steam may have more disposable income than young families, and while not wanting to deter children from seeing Thomas the Tank Engine in the flesh, my reasoning was that maybe there is a revenue stream being missed because everyone has targeted the family day out.

But, if as you say the average enthusiast comes armed with a very expensive camera and behaves selfishly, while contributing virtually nothing to the society coffers; then my ideas seem to be based on a fallacy that the wealthy retired are prepared to dig deep in order to see a more realistic railway scene. (And I dont mean Galas, which to me are a different event entirely).

Maybe I have been given the wrong impression by all the reports in the heritage press concerning new builds of locomotive classes that have no representative in preservation. Maybe money is much tighter in preserved railway circles than these projects imply.

Nevertheless, it is a fascinating thread (even if it is way off topic) and I have learned a lot .

John

[S.A.C. Martin]

Please, Flamingo and Smierski, dont get me wrong. I am not trying to belittle the efforts that thousands are putting into preserved railways. I am just trying to make an alternative point, maybe Devils Advocate if you like, from a more 'anorak' viewpoint.

Absolutely fair enough John - I don't think anyone particularly minds that, I must confess I have enjoyed for the most part writing in this thread.

But, if as you say the average enthusiast comes armed with a very expensive camera and behaves selfishly, while contributing virtually nothing to the society coffers; then my ideas seem to be based on a fallacy that the wealthy retired are prepared to dig deep in order to see a more realistic railway scene. (And I dont mean Galas, which to me are a different event entirely).

The problem is two fold, and I see it all the time. Many photographers are just line siders. They don't actually stop in on the railway itself to take a photo, they turn up in a field and take a few photographs. I have absolutely no truck with that. It is a free country to certain extents, and we certainly do not own any rights on the taking of photographs on our tracks. However there are those who are also very vocal about what preserved railways should do, while offering nothing in return.

This isn't a minority of photographers, in my opinion, though I am happy to admit I do not have statistics to prove that point, it is simply my observation of the many photographers who line the GCR year after year, and also comment in the press to some extent about how preserved railways should do business.

I should point out that there are people who do stop in, buy a cup of tea, or drop a few coppers through the slot in the charity boxes, and suggest improvements to the railway, and I have no truck with them at all. It's just a shame that the stereotypical man with a camera still manifests itself, grumpily, next to the railway rather than on it.

Maybe I have been given the wrong impression by all the reports in the heritage press concerning new builds of locomotive classes that have no representative in preservation. Maybe money is much tighter in preserved railway circles than these projects imply.

Actually, I feel the money is there but preserved railways don't try hard enough to get it - nor do they do the right sort of fund-raising. If anything, the success of Tornado amongst other new-build projects (the G5, Beachy Head, and similar) is in their business blueprint.

They are inherently more successful through their covenanting schemes than simply asking for one-off donations, and I feel this is something that could be applied successfully to the heritage movement as a whole. It's not a question of there being less money in disposable income, I feel it's more to do with how much over such and such period of time is built up, and having covenants in this way has gone some way to making the new build projects financially viable.

But it does depend on the project and how attractive you make it to someone you hope will donate money on a regular, nigh on guaranteed basis.

In that respect, this thread isn't wholly off-topic. Without the support of her covenator's money, Tornado's repairs and continued service on the mainline would be in doubt, financially.

[Flamingo]

The fact is, like it or not, preserved railways are now part of the "leisure industry". They are light-years away from the concept they started from of somewhere to re-create our youthful ambitions of being a train driver or whatever. Back in the brave days of yore whoever could have dreamed of owning their own personal A4 ( and other engines besides in some cases ); nowadays it is not at all unusual to read of "Joe Bloggs' Black Five rostered for a steam tour. Well, that's not the sort of railway enthusiast I shall ever be ( or want to be) but it's people like those who call the shots now.

Nowadays railways are in competition with theme parks like Alton Towers or Chessington; every town now has one or more garden centres ( round these parts coach parties trun up at them just to get a good lunch or afternoon tea, never mind to buy the plants). Railways have to think like such places and adopt their methods to compete with them, otherwise all is lost - or soon will be.

50% of the UK population ( it may be higher, but at least that many) are aged under 40. Us oldies are the minority now, not the families with noisy kids. We have to listen to them, cater for them and give them what they want and expect. Otherwise they'll just take their money elsewhere.

[Bryan]

Please, Flamingo and Smierski, dont get me wrong. I am not trying to belittle the efforts that thousands are putting into preserved railways. I am just trying to make an alternative point, maybe Devils Advocate if you like, from a more 'anorak' viewpoint.

Can I please make the same request to you Simierski, as I have just made to Tom Tank?
Can you please reduce the width of your banner title as it means having to move the page over to read the line ends.
Surely a normal page width is enough?

[S.A.C. Martin]

Please, Flamingo and Smierski, dont get me wrong. I am not trying to belittle the efforts that thousands are putting into preserved railways. I am just trying to make an alternative point, maybe Devils Advocate if you like, from a more 'anorak' viewpoint.

Can I please make the same request to you Simierski, as I have just made to Tom Tank?
Can you please reduce the width of your banner title as it means having to move the page over to read the line ends.
Surely a normal page width is enough?

Yes, of course - I had added a resizing code, but it does not appear to work currently

My apologies.

[StevieG]

My own poorly idea in assisting the preserved railways on the few occasions that I visit (& that's not because I dislike going to see them, on any occasion/event), with camera in hand, is that I will usually fit in a trip of some sort on them and, although being fortunate enough to have ex-railway staff travel privileges entitlement, I refuse to make use of them on such preserved/steam/volunteer railways that recognise them, instead paying full fare.

[Mickey]

Sat 14th August. A1 Tornado working a KINGS CROSS to YORK and return working.

[Mickey]

Thats another 'gripe' i have about running steam specials on the ECML in recent years SLOW ROAD RUNNING. Why do 'the powers that be' ruin a great spectacle by running an express train with Tornado or Bittern or Union of South Africa or Flying Scotsman hauling a rake of coaches a long the 'slow line' for?. Ok i know that Network Rail are running there normal advertised services and we should all be thankful that they have allowed the steam special to run on there metals at all but (for me) it some how looks 'odd' infact it just DON'T LOOK RIGHT running a long the slow lines?. Back in October 1994 i was waiting at the north end on the up fast line platform at Finsbury Park thinking i would get a great view of the A4 Union of South Africa as she came tearing through the Park on the down fast line like she use to do. Infact when Union of South Africa did appear she came at a 'slow speed' down the slow line through the slow line platforms and 'gingerly' made her way northwards (pass the site of Finsbury Park No5 s/box) down the bank and onwards towards Harringay again down the slow line completely spoiling the vision i had in my mind of what i thought that i was going to see an A4 at speed heading a down express through Finsbury Park 'just like the old days'.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Thats another 'gripe' i have about running steam specials on the ECML in recent years SLOW ROAD RUNNING. Why do 'the powers that be' ruin a great spectacle by running an express train with Tornado or Bittern or Union of South Africa or Flying Scotsman hauling a rake of coaches a long the 'slow line' for?. Ok i know that Network Rail are running there normal advertised services...

I'm just going to stop you there. That is exactly why these specials sometimes have slow road running. Railtours, whether we like it or not, are simply not as commercial as the real railways and Network Rail must allow these trains through as a priority. That is not ever going to change - the real railway and their services must come first.