Returning to Grantham

[rob237]

Reckon you'll find that 61251 was at Hitchin prior to its sojourn at Grantham.
Can't recall seeing their other named B1, 61027 Madoqua, north of Peterborough...
Cheers
Robt P.

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

Well looking as though P.B.Hands and D.W.B might have both got this wrong :-

61251 Yeadons say's it was at Grantham from 14/6/59 until it was moved to Doncaster on 8/9/63. It was condemned on the 19/4/64 and sold for scrap in 6/64.

I think your info looks spot on Andy.
Regards,Derek.

[Andy W]

On the subject of 61251, I have rechecked KM4/13 and it agrees with the aforementioned Yeadon entry.

I have found Hands not to be 100% accurate but I am reluctant to criticise authors who put their heads above the parapet and print what they believe are the facts. I know his "What Happened to Steam" series has come into disrepute recently but, in the absence of source material, he did a fair job. The 61251 allocation error appears there too.

I think I know how it occured - 41251 was reallocated to 50A around May 1963 on the closure of Malton (50F). A 4 became a 6 in his records - there is no mention of 41251 going to 50A in the relevant volume of "What Happened to Steam."

[Andy W]

On the subject of withdrawal policy, at this stage of the programme locomotives within classes were picked on the basis of mileage since shopping, their next shopping proposal date and, in the case of the pacifics, when their next No 6 or No 12 Valve and Piston exams were due. For ER locomotives these exams were mainly carried out (until autumn 1963) at Doncaster Works and, where they were recorded, were classed as C/L (casual light) repairs.

The mileages as at 13/7/63 (the last period recorded for steam in the KX Division 1963-68 mileage book) are the best guide as to the decision making process. 60048-42798, 60054-39905, 60061-51665, 60062-30821, 60063-36252, 60065-55642, 60066-56981, 60106-31419, 60107-68897, 60108-42138 and 60112-21186.

60061/5/6 and 60107 would have been the logical ones to withdraw next and if we look at the V&P dates (as at May 1963), 60061 was due a No 12 in 9/63, 60065 was due a No 12 in 7/63, 60066 was due a No 12 in 8/63 and 60107 was due a No 12 in 8/63. So they tie up too. SP dates by this stage were not going to mean much as the class was not being accepted for classified repairs and the SP dates were being put back on proposal. A serious fault would have probably condemned the locomotive at this late stage. The designated shopping period for pacifics (all classes) at this time was 15 months.

The problem in September was that 60065 was already in Doncaster (Yeadon in date 12/8/63) for its No 12. 60048 was due for its No 12 in 10/63 so it was next in line but only by a short head from 60108 which had nearly the same mileage and was due for a No 12 in 9/63. Indeed 60108 was the next to be withdrawn. It was slated to be transfered with the last 6 from 36A to 34E on 20/10/63 (the Yeadon entry for 60112 is a misprint) but was withdrawn on 19/10/63 instead.

60065 went into Doncaster works a 34F loco and came out (Yeadon out date 16/9/63) allocated to 36A!

[61070]

I happen to have photographs of 60065 and 60048 taken at Grantham mpd in those final weeks. Both pictures have been posted before at different times, but I think the new information brought to light by Andy W about the exchange of their withdrawal makes it worth posting them here together.

1. 60065 seen during our tour of the shed on 1st August 1963.

2. On 5th September 1963, four days before closure, a porter and two other youthful staff from the station have walked over to the shed to have their photograph taken with 60048. With Andy W's fascinating insight into the activity behind the scenes as the depot prepared for closure, one can imagine perhaps that as this picture was being taken Mr F. Richardson, the depot master, may have been in his office, following his instructions and arranging the duties of the men who would be taking Grantham's last allocation of locomotives away over the following 3 days.

The reference to Mr Richardson has prompted me to look through my collection of extracts from the local weekly newspaper The Grantham Journal which I gathered together when researching the background to the period in which the pictures were taken. He gets a mention in the following article (partly quoted only) which appears in the issue of Friday Feb 22nd 1963 and relates to the closure of the depot later in the year. There's quite a list of motive power people mentioned.

"Grantham can still find a place in railways' new pattern," loco men told

Reference to the forthcoming closure of Grantham's motive power depot was made by Mr. Bonham Carter, line traffic manager of the Eastern Region, at what may prove to have been the last annual staff dinner of the department, held at the Angel hotel, Grantham, on Saturday.

Mr. Bonham Carter, replying to a toast to "The Visitors," emphasised that Grantham was only one of many places involved in the British Transport Commission plan. It had not been singled out for closure of its locomotive department.
…
Among the guests welcomed at the dinner were Grantham's Mayor and Mayoress, Coun. And Mrs. W.O. Heath – the Mayor is himself a railwayman; Grantham's M.P., Mr Joseph Godber; Mr. F.C. Richardson, depot master at Grantham; Mr. J. Blundell (rtd.) Sheffield running and maintenance engineer; Mr. Morris and Mr. Palmer, running and maintenance engineers; Mr F. Young, running foreman, Peterborough; Mr. P. King, chief mechanical engineer; Mrs F. Cunnington, representing the Lincolnshire Road Car Co., and Mr. J. Dann and party, representing B.M.A.R.Co. [a local engineering manufacturer (British Manufacturing & Research Company) whose works was near the mpd]

Chairman was Mr. J.M. Puffette, running foreman, who proposed "The Visitors," and tribute was paid to Mr. Reginald Glen Earl who, as manager of the BR Dinner Club, had arranged the annual event since 1937.

The loyal toast was submitted by Mr. G. Asher, motive power controller.
…
Mr Palmer said that Grantham had always had a high class in passenger work and the enginemen of the town were of the highest calibre. They could still play an important part in the making of East Coast history, he concluded.
…
To round off the evening entertainment was supplied by artistes from Nottingham – Alan Davis (piano), Bert Thorpe (baritone) and Pat Kelly (comedian).

Responsible for organising the entertainment was Mr H.M. Parker, top-link driver at Grantham.

[rob237]

...Among the guests welcomed at the dinner were Grantham's Mayor and Mayoress...

Surprising omission from the list seems to be the, shortly to retire, long serving Grantham station-master, Harold Campion...
Cheers
Robt P.

[manna]

G'Day Gents
...And there stands 60065 in all her (his) latter day glory next to a GN cabbed 02, double chimney German smoke deflectors and a .......round dome! right at the end of steam, and we get told (not on this site ) Oh! they all went years ago, when they became A3's, did,nt a Peppercorn A1, have one fitted (round dome) at one stage in the 50's
manna

[61070]

Hi this pic from the Neville Stead collection might be of interest...

Thanks for that. Rather a rarity to see some detail of the Lincoln bay...
Cheers
Robt P.

Thanks for the link 52D - it's a great picture. None of my father's photos were taken from that position, probably because we generally arrived around 1pm and in the afternoon this wouldn't have been a good angle from the lighting point of view. The morning light does really make that scene.

[PGBerrie]

I can never decide whether German-type deflectors made the A3s look better or worse - at the time they certainly gave them a modern touch. Anyone have experience of driving one?

Peter

[61070]

When saw A3s for the first time in 1962 they were nearly all fitted with the German 'Witte' pattern smoke deflectors. I think they carry them quite well, and, crucially, they seem to have done the job of giving the crew a clearer view of the line ahead. I expect they were less of an obstruction (in comparison with full-length plates) when access to the front fooplating was needed during servicing. Also, perhaps, during shunting and low-speed work they would have provided a better view of the line immediately ahead, and of other locomotives or vehicles being approached. I've no experience of this, but from photographs the line-of-sight from cab window forward seems to be less obstructed.

Still at Grantham on 1st August 1963…

1. From its format and appearance, and the glimpse of the bridge or viaduct in the photo on the page beneath, it looks like this smartly-dressed lad (possibly in his first pair of long trousers?) is reading one of the railway periodicals of the time.

2. This is part of the rear wall of the largely demolished 'Old Shed' viewed from the station platform, with the afternoon sunlight glancing across it to enhance its texture. The background is the coaling stage, its roof showing signs of dilapidation. The building on the left was the Fitters' mess room (was it the original Fitters' workshop at the Old Shed, superseded by a larger workshop at the New Shed?). At the far end of the wall is a tool box of the type fitted to the tenders of older locomotives. A real industrial 'still life' study.

3. This picture illustrates some aspects of railway modernisation and closures at that time.

43154 waits at the up colour light starting signal which, in the late 1950s, had replaced a splendid tall semaphore bracket signal with co-acting arms that appears in many classic photographs taken at Grantham. Does anyone know when this colour light replaced the semaphores? I think it has to have happened before September 13th 1958 as I've a note that I've seen a photo dated then in which the colour light signal appears.

For most of the 1950s 43154 was based on the M&GN section at Melton Constable, hence the tablet catcher.

An English Electric Type 4 (from my record of the day – see below - probably D241), approaches with a down Pullman train (The Tees-Tyne Pullman?). There are three men in the cab, so perhaps an inspector is aboard to provide support in case of locomotive problems on such a prestigious service. Presumably the other two men will be the driver and the second man, agreement with the trades union ASLEF having still to be reached with regard to the abolition of double manning on main line diesel traction [am I right here? - comments welcome].

The signalman in the Yard Box, behind No.43154, is on top of his job, having just returned his home signal to danger. The camera shutter catches the slotted Grantham North distant signal below it falling to the ‘on’ position just a split second behind.

In the goods yard there is a consignment of what appear to be covered trailers for the army on 4-wheeled low sided wagons.

4. That notebook is the source of the list of some of the locomotives that were on Grantham shed which we had visited earlier. It also lists successively 43154 and D241, providing the proposed identity of the EE Type 4 in the previous picture. No long trousers for me for another year or so!

[Andy W]

Superb pictures again 61070.

A quick note on the Grantham LMS 2-6-0 locomotives. 43154 was a Colwick engine at the time the photo was taken but Grantham had an allocation of these locos until May 12th 1963 when 43087/90, 43111/59 were transfered to Barrow Hill. The move away was precipitated by the carriage pilot workings being converted to diesel shunter operation as from Monday May 6th 1963.

According to file KM4/13 Mr Richardson asked on May 1st for instructions as to what to do with them. He was telephoned on the 7th and a letter confirming the move "as soon as possible" was sent on the 9th. The allocation of a diesel shunter to 34E to cover these workings caused a minor hiccup. Spare & recently ex works 12137 was to be sent from 34G to 40B and D3156 sent from 40B to 34E but D4087 was sent instead of D3156, the official date for these transfers being 12th May. 34E was the depot that would work the Grantham pilot duty.

On the occasion of the running and maintenance annual dinner, the list of attendees was impressive. Messrs Morris amd Palmer were Colin Morris and Cyril Palmer, the top Motive Power men for the Traffic Manager KX & Line Manager GN Lines respectively. Colin Morris went onto be the first DME KX and didn't retire until the mid 1970's. The absence of the name of the Grantham station master didn't mean he wasn't there but he wouldn't have got "top billing" at an R&M event!!

[strang steel]

I know that this is taking things a bit far, but I have zoomed in on the young chaps spotting notes, and rotated the photo by 90 deg on my laptop screen.

It is difficult to make out the numbers but it does look as though he saw 60025 and D271. There may be a 43016 and 60051 in there as well, but I am beginning to resort to guess work.

John

[CVR1865]

That is very good, I wonder if it might be 60102 and 60014 just above it....

That is a wonderfully clear image.

[61070]

Well, who would have thought that a glimpse of my old spotting notes could cause so much interesting speculation? Here's the record such as it is (treat with caution) for Grantham on 1st August 1963 - centre and right hand columns of the first page and left and centre columns of the second page, plus possibly the top three lines of the right column.

The first page below is the one that's visible in the photograph and D271, now inked over, is there. Above it from the top is 63940 [which is in the picture above with 60065], 61289 […but was it actually 34F's 61389?], 60046 and 90259. Soon after we regained the platforms from the shed D6811 seems to have put in an appearance on the up The Sheffield Pullman with cars Wren, Falcon, Opal, Car No. 332 and Car No.81.

Sorry about the standard of the handwriting, which I'm sure is mainly to blame for the problems you've been facing getting to grips with the numbers. My father contended that the italic script they tried to teach us at my primary school was an abomination, and that the final ruination of the art of decent handwriting was the ball point pen. He may have been right. Whatever the reason, I was never a neat writer and, now that most written communication is done through a keyboard, sadly my hand is actually becoming even more unshapely.

Anyway, on the first page nearly all the centre column and down as far as 90259 were noted during our shed visit – see the list above. The left column is from a separate visit to the GC just north of Leicester Central station.

Over the page 43154 is followed by D241 and then two Pullman cars – Amber and Car No.70. These would have been in the train hauled by D241, so this may be a clue to the service. Note that there was a later Pullman service seen that day, most likely hauled by D9012, direction of travel unknown, which had among its vehicles Car No.337, Ruby and Heron.

Only one A4 is listed, 60021, which I think was our penultimate sighting of a 'streak' at Grantham - see photo below.

At the top of column 3 is, allegedly, 61835 - but that locomotive appears to have been withdrawn nearly a year before. Hence the need for circumspection I think.

[Andy W]

61070, it was K3 61835 that you saw.

It was the former New England stationary boiler and was reported scrapped at Doncaster in September 1963 so may well have been on its way to Doncaster for disposal.

A rare sighting indeed.