Returning to Grantham

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strang steel
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by strang steel »

60129 GUY MANNERING wrote:1963 Saw the end of Steam at Grantham in so much as the shed closed on the 9th September 1963 and the inhabitants either left under their own steam or in some cases were Dragged off by their compatriots.
There were however still Steam Loco's working through on Diesel Failure reliefs or possibly duties from the North.
Regards.
I dont suppose you have any numbers of the 'final inhabitants' ?

I have no ROs for 1963, yet.

John
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60129 GUY MANNERING
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 60129 GUY MANNERING »

Hello John,
I most certainly do, there were only members of 3 classes still allocated to GRANTHAM 34F in September 1963. They were A3,B1 & O2 Class Locomotives. The following were reallocated to other Depots after that fatal day :-
A3 Class. 60054,60062,60063,60065, 60106,60108 & 60112.
B1 Class. 61250,61367,61389 & 61392.
O2 Class. 63931,63932,63940,63943,63962,63968,63974,63981,63984,63985 & 63987.
The following Locomotives were all withdrawn on that day and moved away to await their fate :-
A3 Class. 60048,60061,60066 & 60107.
Class O2. 63928,63935,63938,63941,63942,63949,63956,63960 & 63963.

I do hope that this is of use to you John and I hope 61070 is still on good terms with me for hogging his Topic.
Just edited in the last two A3's that were transferred away, missed the bottom line of the list --Sorry.
Kind Regards,Derek.
Last edited by 60129 GUY MANNERING on Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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61070
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 61070 »

Hello Mallard - our school railway society arranged memorable shed-bashing coach trips to the likes of Eastleigh, Bournemouth and Weymouth mpds to catch the last year or two of Southern steam. I'm glad (relieved actually!) to see that the other guys have got in to answer your query about steam's demise at Grantham. I was just an occasional visitor from Leicester with a father who took a few pictures. In fact I'm on here mainly to ask questions rather than answer them, so thanks for chipping in guys - it's good to have your company.

Here we are, then, on the afternoon of Thursday August 1st 1963.

1. Given what's been said previously about the regular removal of spotters from the Grantham platforms, this group of seven lads may soon be on their way should one of the Station Inspectors spot them larking about on the trolley.

2. No locomotive, or even a train, in view - just one of those 'people' shots that present themselves while spending a few hours on a railway station. Technique was important – a wide aperture combined with accurate use of the rangefinder to set the focus (the camera wasn't an SLR, and autofocus was a dream for the future).

3. & 4. As 60129 has said, on this day 34F had less than six weeks before closure. Not long after we arrived a driver came up to us and asked Dad if he would take a photograph of some of his mates and him over at the shed, because they wanted a group picture before the shed closed. It meant a trip 'over the tracks' to where the main line pilot was stabled, on the far side of the coaling stage. I remember the day very clearly because, being 'well brought up' (i.e. having had a perhaps rather more sheltered childhood than many), I had never crossed the railway by a non-public route before. Clambering over all those railway lines, far into 'forbidden territory', at the age of 9 felt like a huge adventure.

Footplate crew and shed staff were gathered together in front of 60112 St Simon, the best A3 they had at the time.

In the cab are Mick Guy (a fireman but, typically, they've let him have the driver's seat) and Bill Harrison (driver) - presumably the crew of the day. Below, from left to right, are: Albert Bellamy (shed foreman); Stan Robinson, Fred Burrows and Roy Veasey (drivers); Ken Baines (storekeeper); Bernard Nickerson, Cyril Balham and Frank Lawson (drivers).

Later in the month, on 25th August, 60112 travelled to Weymouth when it hauled an enthusiasts’ special train, The Southern Counties Enterprise, from London Waterloo - see http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/630825sc.html - and is reckoned to have achieved 90mph. This was probably further from the East Coast Main Line than it had ever been before [comments welcome!], and it was given a thorough clean for the trip [edit 7 Sept 2012 - photographic evidence since discovered shows that that this was a repaint, presumably carried out at Doncaster Works] – indicative of the pride men such as these took in the reputation of their depot during its final days. [see Steam World, Issue 250 (April 2008), lower illustration on page 53 - where I first learned of this 'day out' for 60112].

St Simon, owned by the Duke of Portland, was one of the most successful thoroughbred racehorses of the 19th century. In 1884 he won the Epsom Gold Cup, the Ascot Gold Cup and the Goodwood Cup. His skeleton is preserved at the Natural History Museum in London.

When I returned to Grantham in more recent times I had the great pleasure of meeting Roy Veasey, who introduced himself to me as the Driver who, 45 years before, had invited us over to the shed to take these pictures! Roy began his railway career in December 1942 as a messenger boy in the Goods Office at Grantham. He transferred to 'the Loco' in February 1945 starting as a cleaner, then moving on to fireman. He fired express trains on the main line from 1954 until 1960; during this period one of his regular locomotives was 60144 King's Courier. Roy became a driver in 1960, transferring from steam to diesel locomotives in the 1960s.
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Last edited by 61070 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:11 am, edited 7 times in total.
60129 GUY MANNERING
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 60129 GUY MANNERING »

Hello John,
you spotted my mistake regarding 60112 and in fact 60108.They were on a seperate line in the book and I jumped from 60106 to the B1's.I have edited my post so that people are not confused.
Roy has recently returned from a holiday in Jersey.He is a remarkable man according to your post, if he started on the Railway in 1942, he must be at least 18 years older than me. It just proves that hard work never killed these genuine guys.
Not going to give away his age,but only 18 months all being well (Mr Osborne permitting) till I collect my Old Age Pension.
Regards,Derek.
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strang steel
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by strang steel »

Thanks Derek, for the numbers of locos on the sad final day of 34F. They are very useful to me in a purely nostalgic sense.

I lost a lot of my spotting notes about 40 years ago; (I am convinced my late mother threw them out).

However, an old ABC survived and I have numbers underlined in that. I was taken on a trip to London in August 1963 and it is nice to speculate on the locos that I might have seen at the beginning of the journey.

I know that I did not see 60065, because my only ever sighting of Knight Of Thistle was on the scrap line at the back of New England shed some time later, but that was probably late 1964.

John
John.

My spotting log website is at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/

And my spotters' b&w photo site is at http://spottinglogs.blog
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 52D »

Hi this pic from the Neville Stead collection might be of interest
http://steamingback.fotopic.net/p47153436.html
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
60129 GUY MANNERING
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 60129 GUY MANNERING »

I know that I did not see 60065, because my only ever sighting of Knight Of Thistle was on the scrap line at the back of New England shed some time later, but that was probably late 1964.
John, thats not surprising as SHE? ( a Knight) was withdrawn from 34E in June 1964.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by rob237 »

52D wrote:Hi this pic from the Neville Stead collection might be of interest...
Thanks for that. Rather a rarity to see some detail of the Lincoln bay...
Cheers
Robt P.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Andy W »

Back to Roadrailers for a moment. I am quite sure that Pat Sumner would have known Archie Prince and Ken Dadd as Pat also rode inside the vans. Archie Prince doesn't appear on the KM2/878 files but Ken Dadd does, in the minutes of various technical meetings to discuss maintenance arrangements and modifications. I have his actual original signature on a mod. completion tick list.

Pat once told me that he was inside one vehicle when the speed indicator jumped off the scale. To the horror of all concerned, the only logical explanation that they could come up with was that the vehicle had momentarily "flown".

The major incident seemed to have occured in July 1963. This date came up when, in 1965, the Central Stock Registery (later to become the Rolling Stock Library) gave everyone a hard time over an item of capital stock being written off without proper notification! No one had done the appropriate CSR forms.

The last main line test run that I can find was on the 30th April 1964 when D5677 took 50 wagons, an adaptor wagon and a dyno car for some more high speed braking trials. The vehicles returned to Enfield Chase but shortly after that moved to No 2 Carriage Shed at Stratford as the coal traffic was building up at Enfield Chase (then becoming the CCD for that part of London). They then moved to Temple Mills road van shop prior to the abortive efforts to enter service in 1965/6.

If you want to find out where they were (undercover) in 1967/8 have a look at GN Engine Sheds Vol 1 page 91 and that picture of New England Shed.
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Andy W »

It has been a real pleasure in trying to add a bit of context to some of the fabulous pictures that 61070 has posted here and going through the Roadrailer files has been a bit of a voyage of discovery for me too. Although I have kept these files safe, I never really looked inside them and I do hope my dips into this particular part of railway history have been illuminating. For my last "new" post on the subject my research became, unwittingly, a little more personal.

One entry made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. It concerned a problem they were having with road air couplings. They were specified to a BRS design but most of the contractors lorries had SMMT fittings. So there was debate about what they should do, which involved the supplier, an experienced firm that had designed & manufactured the quick release fittings for the Scammell Mechanical Horse & similar vehicles.

The firm was Feeney and Johnson, a NW london engineering co. that also had a sideline in disabled car adaptions. The engineer who dealt with the problem was probably Mr Harold Johnson himself, who is still about, although his firm has long since gone. A decision was made & the problem was sorted.

How do I know about this firm - I was at school with his son Stuart, who has been a best mate for nearly 40 years now. We were best man at each others weddings. I visited F&J many times when his father was in charge. Stuart currently works for the RAIB and is a bit of a signalling expert, as Stevie G and John Hinson will testify! He has the F&J archive in his loft so you never know what I might be able to find out yet.

So, like Brush53Falcon, there have been two people in my life that have been connected to Roadrailers. One personal and one (Pat Sumner) professional.

Isn't life sometimes very strange.
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61070
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 61070 »

What a fascinating insight into the Roadrailer trials Andy W and Brush53Falcon have been relating. As has been said, it's an almost forgotten piece of BR Modernisation Plan history, a system which clearly received a substantial investment of resources that probably were only available to the railway between the mid-1950s and the early 1960s.

The mention of Feeney and Johnson by Andy W as a supplier to the project reminded me that in the article from the British Railways Magazine, which I quoted from earlier, there's a mention that 'Messrs Rotax Limited, of Willesden' were one of two principal sub-contractors who are identified. I looked them up and find that, while they had started out in the motor car accessories business, and also made train lighting dynamos, by the 1950s - and perhaps even earlier - they seem mainly to have been manufacturers of electrical and mechanical accessories for aero engines and aircraft. I have wondered what their contribution to the Roadrailer project might have been.

Back to 1st August 1963 for a minute. After the photos of the group of railwaymen with 60112 had been taken we were accompanied on a tour of the shed. I remember it being quite rushed, and I wasn't able to write down the numbers of every locomotive that was there; I concentrated on capturing the pacifics and tended to miss the MT and freight engines as we dashed around. Hence the evident imbalance of the record in my notebook, which cannot be relied upon as anything like a complete log of all the engines at the shed on that occasion. It may not even be accurate – e.g. I have 61289 of 50B, but could it have been 61389 of 34F?

For strang steel and others here is the list, with shed allocations (from internet research – again may not be reliable).

60112 St Simon 34F
60063 Isinglass 34A
60107 Royal Lancer ** 34A
60062 Minoru 34E
60051 Blink Bonny 52A
60830 * 34E
90714 36C
60048 Doncaster ** 34F
60065 Knight of Thistle 34F
63940 34F
61251 Oliver Bury 34F
61289 50B
63960 34F
60046 Diamond Jubilee * 34F
60108 Gay Crusader 34E
90259 40E
* Already withdrawn: 60046 (Jun 1963), 60830 (Jun 1963)
** Withdrawn Sept 1963 (i.e. on closure of the shed): 60048, 60107
Last edited by 61070 on Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andy W
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Andy W »

61070, I'm afraid that my maintenance files on the Roadrailers don't mention Rotax of Willesden at all and I apologise for renaming Mr Gadd in a previous post!

But perhaps the contents of file KM4/13 might interest you. It's the file for engine allocation changes between 1963 and 1965, outlining the final run down of steam on the KX Division. So let's go back to Grantham in August 1963.

During the summer 1963 timetable period, Grantham (34F) had an allocation of 11 A3 locos for 6 diagrams (4 classed as 7P and 2 as 6MT), 5 B1 locos for 3 diagrams and 20 02 locos for 11 diagrams. If you reconcile those numbers with the list tabled earlier in this thread, 61251, a one time Hitchin favourite, is the missing B1.

Meetings were held twice yearly by the GN Line management to discuss the resources needed for the forthcoming summer or winter timetables. The meeting to discuss the winter 1963/4 timetable was to take place on 10th September 1963 (actually held on the 12th with P.N.Townend attending for the KX Division) but as that meeting was to be held after Grantham closed on the 8th September, the Line Traffic Manager wrote to the Traffic Manager Kings Cross on the 28th August giving details of what was to happen.

At the same time Mr F.Richardson, the Depot Master at Grantham, was wondering what he had to do and on the 30th August he wrote to the TM KX asking for instructions. In making the arrangements for clearing the depot on the 7th, he had to book men on to do so in order that the depot would be cleared by 0600 on the 8th September.

To be continued.....
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Andy W »

The closure of Grantham (part 2).

The letter of the 29th August instructed that the following should take place: 60061/5/6, 60107, 63928/35/8/41/2/9/56/60/3 to be withdrawn & sent to Doncaster. 60048/54/62/3, 60106/8/12, 61250/1, 61367/89/92, 63931/2/40/3/62/8/74/81/4/5/7 to be transfered to Doncaster District. If withdrawn 63923/30/3/48 (sold to Central Wagon, Ince) were still on depot, they were to be moved or stored elsewhere.

Over the next week, the orders were clarified and altered. The withdrawn 02 locos had indeed departed the depot but 63941 was stopped and condemned at Frodingham on the 3rd September, narrowly missing being at 34F at the very end. All the 02's didn't end up at Doncaster itself, where there were space concerns. 63981/4/5/7 were to be sent to Retford together with the newly withdrawn 63928/35/6.

The instructions to Mr Richardson were sent out on the 3rd September but there was to be one further change. 60065 was actually in Doncaster Works undergoing a no.12 V&P exam, so 60048 was condemned in its place. 60065 lived on, for the moment.

Mr Richardson also asked whether he should remove the tablet catchers from 63931/2/5/40 (answer: to be left in position) and what he should do with sludge tenders 330601/11/2/21/7/35/6 and scrap sludge tender 941649 (answer: await further instructions). In a real twist of fate Mr F.Richardson was the acting Depot Manager at New England when the steam allocation was withdrawn at the very end of 1964 and he had to do it all over again!

There are pictures of Grantham station and shed taken on 7th September 1963, showing some of the final steam departures, in the excellent Eastern Region Steam Twilight Volume 2 by Colin Walker.
60129 GUY MANNERING
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 60129 GUY MANNERING »

Andy W said:-
During the summer 1963 timetable period, Grantham (34F) had an allocation of 11 A3 locos for 6 diagrams (4 classed as 7P and 2 as 6MT), 5 B1 locos for 3 diagrams and 20 02 locos for 11 diagrams. If you reconcile those numbers with the list tabled earlier in this thread, 61251, a one time Hitchin favourite, is the missing B1.
Andy this is not me trying to disagree more a case of setting the record straight for us all.
According to my records 61251 left Grantham in May 1963 and went to 50A York for 4 months until September 1963, this is also the information to be found in the books BR STEAM SHED ALLOCATIONS Parts Four & Six by P.B.Hands and published by Defiant Publications.
It does seem a strange movement I must confess and I would be inclined to think your information is more accurate,although having said that Mr Hands information has in the past always proved to be 100% accurate.
Perhaps others can throw more light on this subject.
Kind Regards,Derek.
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strang steel
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by strang steel »

Thanks Andy for that excellent insight into the activities surrounding a shed closure.

Being a naive soul, I had been of the impression that locos were mainly withdrawn when they needed repairs, but it seems that in the case of the 60065/48 swap, some of the withdrawal candidates seem to have been chosen almost on a whim.

John
John.

My spotting log website is at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/

And my spotters' b&w photo site is at http://spottinglogs.blog
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