Returning to Grantham

[hq1hitchin]

'The Technical man on the trains would have been their Roadrailer Technical Officer - a young Pat Sumner, later to be the Divisional C&W Engineer at KX.'

Still looking incredibly youthful the last time I saw him at a Hatfield re-union about three years ago, he was mechanical foreman at Hatfield in the days of N7 tankies. Hope he's still well in St Neots.

Good to see stuff on here about the Roadrailers, an almost forgottten episode in British railway history. The story we were told as lads was that the scheme failed suddenly when a test train became derailed somewhere south of Stoke Tunnel, days before it was all going to go public. The scheme was scrapped and it never happened. Anyone got proper details on this, please?

[61070]

Many thanks to the two Andys and DaveF for the Roadrailer information, film clip and photo. To retrieve the details of the crew and the purpose of the run at this distance in time is amazing, and thanks may be due to your parents, Andy W, for holding on to your archive.

With all those Inspectors about it's little wonder that the crew is so smartly attired, as observed by Peter.

There's mention in Modern Railways (see below) of another test trip following April 18th, on April 25th, and by Andy W of another on May 9th. Is the locomotive used on the main line part of those runs recorded and, if so, was it D1516 again on either occasion?

Unless there were other test runs on the ECML hauled by D1516, David Ford's photo would appear to have been taken a few minutes after we saw the same train at Grantham. If you look at the headcode panel the '9' is in the same, slightly low, position in both pictures; as it also is in a picture, dated 18th April, which appears on p366 of the June 1963 edition of Modern Railways showing D1516 on Roadrailers heading south on the ECML at Essendine. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that all three of these pictures definitely show the same trip; if D1516 was for some reason kept aside for these runs its headcode screens may have been untouched from one trip to the next.

For interest here is the copy from Modern Railways, June 1963:

Roadrailer trials continue

Notwithstanding the coolness displayed by Dr. Beeching towards the Roadrailer at his press conference when the Reshaping of British Railways was presented, Roadrailer trials have been continuing on the E.R. Recently, as the illustration on this page shows, they have been conducted with a full train on the East Coast main line. On April 18 the formation totalled 41 of these vehicles and included the two Roadrailer flats ordered some time ago for trial. Advocates of the Roadrailer maintain that maximum economy will be realised if the same use is made of flats for merchandise conveyance as by the road haulier. The train, which was without guard's brake, the guard riding in the rear cab of Brush Type 4 diesel No. D1516, was made up to approximately 520 tons weight, with 27 of the Roadrailers loaded, and run from Enfield Chase via Hertford North and Langley Junction, Stevenage, to Doncaster St James Junction, thence back to Ferme Park and finally to Enfield Chase via Palace Gates. Some smart running was scheduled. After a braking test at Hitchin, the train was required to pass Huntingdon, 26.95 miles, in 23min and the 29.10 miles from Peterborough over Stoke Summit to a further braking test at Grantham were booked in 34min. The return journey was timed at 3hr 13min from Doncaster Bridge Junction to Ferme Park, with two brake tests en route and slow line running from Potters Bar onwards. A further East Coast main line trial with the full train of 50 Roadrailers was conducted on the following Thursday, April 25th.

How were these trains turned at Doncaster? Presumably via a circular route in the Doncaster area, as described at the southern end? I can't imagine those vehicles taking kindly to being hauled in reverse, or part-propelled, round a triangle, but maybe that's what happened.

[AndyRush]

Can't think of a circular route close to Doncaster.

Engine each end Bridge Junction - Hexthorpe - Doncaster 'C' Box ?

Anybody got a stock of old freight circulars....?

Regards

Andy

[PGBerrie]

Although the Railroader didn't catch on the the UK, it seems to have survived in America http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 253&nseq=6.

I've been looking in Railway Memories 10, Doncaster (Porter & Chapman, Bellcode) and there is no obvious short route to turn a railroader train, although there are triangles at the North and South of decoy yard.

Peter

[61070]

I've just found my copy of the British Railways Magazine (a BTC publication), LMR edition dated October 1960 (picked up at a 2nd hand bookshop I think at the GCR Loughborough) which has a short illustrated feature called The Roadrailer - The answer to transhipment?.

Describing a demonstration using two prototype vehicles at Marylebone Parcels Depot (by then under LMR jurisdiction), the following are extracted quotes:

The two prototype Roadrailers used in the demonstration had previously undergone exhaustive road and rail tests - on road at the Motor Industry Research Association's test track at Nuneaton and on rail over the main and branch lines of East Anglia. The tests proved them to be reliable, trouble-free vehicles.

The underframe is a steel tube with transverse ribs to carry the body of the vehicle. There is special rail coupling equipment at either end of the tube. The springing at the rear end is the same for both road and rail wheels. Road brakes are air-operated and identical to those fitted to ordinary road trailers. Special vacuum-operated disc brakes are fitted for rail operation. The care taken in developing the new vehicle is reflected in the simplicity of the final design.

The vehicle was conceived independently by British Railways and the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway of the United States. The prototype vehicles reflect the joint efforts of engineers of many organisations - the two railway undertakings; British Road Services; the main development contractors, the Pressed Steel Company of Cowley; and numerous sub-contractors of which Messrs Rotax Limited, of Willesden in London and Messrs Girling Limited, of Tyseley, Birmingham, were the principals.

[Andy W]

Thanks for your kind words 61070. My parents help in keeping the "DME KX" archive was purely involuntary - I've never lived anywhere big enough to house it all under one roof! Most of it has now gone "dahn sarf" but don't tell the missus!

Was D1516 kept specially for the tests? - probably not. The Divisional mileage book for 1963-8 shows that it was at 1559 miles on 20/4/63, 6812 on 18/5/63 and 11875 on 15/6/63. That is comparable with others of the class. It was after 15/6/63 the mileage for the class really took off.

The 9th May trip gives the way they were dealt with at Doncaster. Arrival at Doncaster at 12.50. Propel at 12.55 to St James arriving at 1.5. Leave St James at 2.35, arriving Bridge Jn at 2.42. Departs Bridge Jn at 2.45.

There was also a trip on the 3rd May which brought the Hertford Loop to a stand for 15 minutes when an errant vehicle was dealt with. The vehicles were fitted with a safety device that put the brakes on if there was too much sway and it came on.

The derailment that stopped the trials was at Stukeley. I don't have a date but it was probably in 1963 as B840008 seems to have destroyed as a result. The remaining 51 Covered Trailers and 2 flats received a coupling modification which may give a clue as to what the cause was.

In 1965 it looked as things were finally coming together for service introduction. However there were union difficulties over "open terminals", whatever that meant - it looks as if the road unions were also involved in this, possibly some job protection issue at BRS. Summer 1966 was the last date I have for service preparation but with no resolution to the union issues and the problems of preparing vehicles that had been in store for quite a time, it looks as if the BRB finally then lost interest.

Pat Sumner now restores GCR coaches up at Ruddington - one day I must see how good his Roadrailer memory is!

[mr B]

come back Peco all is forgiven!

mr B

[AndyRush]

SNIPPED
The 9th May trip gives the way they were dealt with at Doncaster. Arrival at Doncaster at 12.50. Propel at 12.55 to St James arriving at 1.5. Leave St James at 2.35, arriving Bridge Jn at 2.42. Departs Bridge Jn at 2.45.

So, no problem propelling them, then.

Perhaps, with the benefit of hindsight, the BRB 'lost interest' because the economics didn't stack up, the weight penalty of dragging the railway wheels and associated mechanism around by road must have been quite large and the cost of this plus two 'transhipment activities' in each comparatively short UK trip would probably have been formidable. The inexplorable extension of motorways would soon have done for the idea anyway; the option that the BRB did go for, the movement of domestic UK containers by Freightliner proved untenable by the early 1990's (except for some specialised flows).

Regards

Andy

[61070]

I have emailed the Local Studies Library at Nottingham, attaching the enlargements of the newspaper and with a request to examine the Nottingham papers for 6th June and 30th May 1963 to see if they match.

Re. the sequence on page 11, I've had an interesting reply from Nottingham Local Studies. They think the newspaper is the Nottingham Evening Post but, if it is, it's not the issue of 30th May or 6th June 1963.

I have checked the Nottingham Evening Post and the Guardian Journal for the dates mentioned. None of these are the paper in the photographs. We are only able to spend 30 minutes on an enquiry and I have done this. There will be no charge as I was unable to find anything for you. The headlines [on the dates asked] were to do with Profumo and Christine Keeler [Profumo resigned on 5th June 1963].
The paper in your photographs does look like the Evening Post but I wonder if the date is more recent?

This leads me to review the basis on which I assigned a late May/mid-June 1963 date to those pictures, which was based on the position in which they were filed relative to other films of known date in what appeared to be a chronological sequence.

Apologies to everyone who's attempted to help me with the dating the series of photographs, back on page 11, which I had bracketed between May 23rd and June 20th 1963. I was wrong. The date turns out to have been Thursday 19th September 1963. Ultimately this was identified from the edition of the newspaper carried by the Ticket Collector.

As mentioned above, my suggestion of May/June was based on how the negs were filed when I came to sort through them, and I should have been more careful.

I'm going to edit the original post with a correction, and for those who may be interested here is an account of how the date came to light:

The reply from Nottingham Local Studies set me looking at the pictures of the ticket collector again with a more analytical eye, and as I did so I became aware that the sun seemed to have a very low elevation for 4pm on a near-midsummer's day (obvious now you think of it).

On one of the pictures (attached; not one I've posted before) it's possible to measure the altitude of the sun from a shadow cast onto a wall in the background (right beneath the conveniently placed clock!), and it's approx 26-27 degrees.

Then I found a website which provides information on the sun's position relative to a given point on the earth at any date and time. Staying with 1963 and a Thursday, September 19th seemed to be the best fit (allowing for BST being in operation). Note also, from the shadows, that the sun is pretty much at 90 degrees to the platform edge; the same website confirms that this would occur at around 4pm (Google Earth having provided the bearing of the platform alignment). This confirmed the setting of the clock.

Having sought further assistance with weather conditions on Thursdays in mid-September 1963 from a fellow member of the Forum (via PM), I got back to Nottingham Local Studies Library with a revised range of mid-September dates. Today they have confirmed that the Ticket Collector's newspaper is The Nottingham Evening Post's edition of 19th September 1963. They've written: The front page has the advert. for the Ideal Homes Exhibition and the headline "Notts. miners plan protest march on coal pool scheme."

If you've read this far, thanks again for all the information and comments that keep coming in on this thread. Everything is much appreciated.

[60041]

Superb bit of detective work, the members of this forum never cease to amaze me with their knowledge, inventiveness and tenacity.

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

Hello John,
Well as it was so easy to sort out I have to say I am surprised it took you so long!!!

No Seriously my friend as 60041 said a superb peice of Detective work by Clayson of the Yard.

Kind Regards,Derek.

[Brush53Falcon]

When I first started work in 1967 I also worked part time in our local garage in Yarnton, who's propietor, Archie Prince, had previously worked for Pressed Steel at Linwood. His last job at Pressed Steel was to ride as techical engineer on the Roadrailer test trains. What is ironic about this is that some eight years previously I can remember an articulated BRS lorry on trade plates coming down our road where I previously lived in Kidlington with a trailer that he flanged wheels at the rear. The tractor unit was a Bristol. It transpired that this was the same Archie Prince visiting the southern based engineer Ken Gadd at his home in Kidlington, I used to walk to school with his daughter, and that I would end up working for and knowing two people connected with the Roadrailer is quite bizarre. Archie used to tell me some good tales about the test trains and was riding inside one of the vans during the pile up near Hitchin. Unfortunately he is now living in Spain in a care home and is very ill but I feel quite privilaged to have known him. This may not be revelant to the thread but it is coincidental. Maybe the man at Loughborough can remember them.

[61070]

Thanks very much for all the Roadrailer photos, comments and information that keep coming in. It's good to hear about the turning arrangements at Doncaster, and we may possibly be homing in on the derailment. The caption for the picture of D1516 is one of the most detailed and interesting - and it keeps growing.

I've had to spend time on amending the photo database following the recent correction to the date of some of the pictures - and there's been some generally abysmal footie to endure. But both are all over now, so I hope we will be able to make another visit to Grantham soon - on 1st August 1963.

[Mallard]

[quote="61070"]Thanks very much for all the Roadrailer photos, comments and information that keep coming in. It's good to hear about the turning arrangements at Doncaster, and we may possibly be homing in on the derailment. The caption for the picture of D1516 is one of the most detailed and interesting - and it keeps growing.

I've had to spend time on amending the photo database following the recent correction to the date of some of the pictures - and there's been some generally abysmal footie to endure. But both are all over now, so I hope we will be able to make another visit to Grantham soon - on 1st August 1963.[/quote]


Ah! August 1963; a VERY good time and yet a very bad time if you lived in the far west as I did! For us at 83D it was the last summer of steam at our beloved shed! OK, I know 'our' locos had funny chimneys and all looked very similar or were wrapped in air-smoothing sheets but they were ours AND we had some of the 'newest' loco's too (rebuilt Bulleids)!
Was '63 the final year for mainline express steam around Grantham, or was that '62? Whatever, I look forward to more of this great nostalgia.
36E (ex 83D/72A)

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

1963 Saw the end of Steam at Grantham in so much as the shed closed on the 9th September 1963 and the inhabitants either left under their own steam or in some cases were Dragged off by their compatriots.
There were however still Steam Loco's working through on Diesel Failure reliefs or possibly duties from the North.
Regards.