So what shall we name the new P2?

[73D]

The ones I like are:

From a fund raising point Elizabeth of Glamis stands head and shoulders above the others. It would get fantastic publicity and I'm sure the general public would be willing to give money to a locomotive named in honour of the Queen Mother.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Hmm, two "Lizzies" on the mainline...could work!

I must admit, with the nameplates done in that artwork, both Elizabeth and Lochleven look to be the top names the forum's come up with. I do like both, mind...

[73D]

Hmm, two "Lizzies" on the mainline...could work!

Yes, you would then have mother and daughter!

[redtoon1892]

Unfortunately the Bowes family, before they fell into good fortune with Elizabeth marrying into royalty did not cover themselves in glory in the North East IMHO.
An extract from the Sunniside local history society explains it well.
Until 1713 the basis of the Bowes' influence was the estate and castle of Streatlam, but after that date the acquisition of the Gibside estate gave them an influence in the north of the county and a share in the immense wealth which was to be acquired from the coal trade. It should be remembered that their wealth was made possible by women, children and men working underground in intolerable conditions and for disgracefully long hours. The miners and their families lived in slums, underground disasters were commonplace and hundreds of men, women and children died in the most dreadful of circumstances in the pursuit of the coal owners wealth. This wealth made possible the building of a splendid eighteenth-century mansion at Streatlam and at Gibside, the creation of one of the most spectacular and dramatic landscapes of that century. Coal revenues were also the foundation of the success, through three generations of the family, of the Streatlam stud which reached the height of its fortunes in the breeding of four Derby winners between 1835 and 1853.
http://www.sunnisidelocalhistorysociety ... bowes.html

[S.A.C. Martin]

Unfortunately the Bowes family, before they fell into good fortune with Elizabeth marrying into royalty did not cover themselves in glory in the North East IMHO.
An extract from the Sunniside local history society explains it well.
Until 1713 the basis of the Bowes' influence was the estate and castle of Streatlam, but after that date the acquisition of the Gibside estate gave them an influence in the north of the county and a share in the immense wealth which was to be acquired from the coal trade. It should be remembered that their wealth was made possible by women, children and men working underground in intolerable conditions and for disgracefully long hours. The miners and their families lived in slums, underground disasters were commonplace and hundreds of men, women and children died in the most dreadful of circumstances in the pursuit of the coal owners wealth. This wealth made possible the building of a splendid eighteenth-century mansion at Streatlam and at Gibside, the creation of one of the most spectacular and dramatic landscapes of that century. Coal revenues were also the foundation of the success, through three generations of the family, of the Streatlam stud which reached the height of its fortunes in the breeding of four Derby winners between 1835 and 1853.
http://www.sunnisidelocalhistorysociety ... bowes.html

I honestly can't see that this could be cited as a reason not to name the loco after the Queen Mother, if I'm honest. She was not responsible for her ancestors actions and she herself has a supremely powerful reputation with the rest of Britain, owing to her work during the second world war as a "figurehead" for the people of sorts.

World War II

During World War II, the King and Queen became symbols of the nation's resistance.[62] Shortly after the declaration of war, The Queen's Book of the Red Cross was conceived. Fifty authors and artists contributed to the book, which was fronted by Cecil Beaton's portrait of the Queen and was sold in aid of the Red Cross.[63] Elizabeth publicly refused to leave London or send the children to Canada, even during the Blitz, when she was advised by the Cabinet to do so. She said, "The children won't go without me. I won't leave the King. And the King will never leave."[64]

She visited troops, hospitals, factories, and parts of Britain that were targeted by the German Luftwaffe, in particular the East End, near London's docks. Her visits initially provoked hostility. Rubbish was thrown at her and the crowds jeered, in part because she dressed in expensive clothing which served to alienate her from those suffering the privations caused by the war.[8] She explained that if the public came to see her they would wear their best clothes, so she should reciprocate in kind; Norman Hartnell dressed her in gentle colours and never black, in order to represent "the rainbow of hope".[65] When Buckingham Palace itself took several hits during the height of the bombing, Elizabeth was able to say, "I'm glad we've been bombed. It makes me feel I can look the East End in the face."[66]

Though the King and Queen spent the working day at Buckingham Palace, partly for security and family reasons they stayed at night at Windsor Castle (about 20 miles [35 kilometres] west of central London) with the Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret. The Palace had lost much of its staff to the army, and most of the rooms were shut.[67] The windows were shattered by bomb blasts, and had to be boarded up.[68] During the "Phony War" the Queen was given revolver training because of fears of imminent invasion.[69]

Because of her effect on British morale, Adolf Hitler is said to have called her "the most dangerous woman in Europe".[7] However, prior to the war both she and her husband, like most of Parliament and the British public, had been supporters of appeasement and Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, believing after the experience of the First World War that war had to be avoided at all costs. After the resignation of Chamberlain, the King asked Winston Churchill to form a government. Although the King was initially reluctant to support Churchill, in due course both the King and Queen came to respect and admire him for what they perceived to be his courage and solidarity.[70][71] At the end of the war in 1945, Churchill was invited onto the balcony in a similar gesture to that given to Chamberlain.

I'd be very surprised if anyone in the North would take offense based on that you've quoted, should the engine be named thusly.

[Bill Bedford]

I'd be very surprised if anyone in the North would take offense based on that you've quoted, should the engine be named thusly.

It seems entirely fitting that people would want to give a reproduction of a famously sub-optimal design of loco the name of the erstwhile head of Britain's most well know dysfunctional family. Still with any luck, before this fantasy get anywhere near finished the government (or better the EU) with have come to it's senses over clamate change and have completely banned coal fired boilers. At that point there will be only one possible name for this thing and that is WHITE ELEPHANT, come to think of it it's a pretty good name for the whole project.

[S.A.C. Martin]

I'd be very surprised if anyone in the North would take offense based on that you've quoted, should the engine be named thusly.

It seems entirely fitting that people would want to give a reproduction of a famously sub-optimal design of loco the name of the erstwhile head of Britain's most well know dysfunctional family. Still with any luck, before this fantasy get anywhere near finished the government (or better the EU) with have come to it's senses over clamate change and have completely banned coal fired boilers. At that point there will be only one possible name for this thing and that is WHITE ELEPHANT, come to think of it it's a pretty good name for the whole project.

Oh dear, do I detect another round of "you'll never finish it", "you won't be able to make that part" or "it's pointless because it doesn't put anything into preservation"?

Strange this, all of the above plus the "white elephant" routine were trotted out when the A1 project was first announced. Eighteen years later, I think Tornado's record for the mainline of the last two years, and the Trusts' for the period of building and operating her so far, speaks for itself.

Odd that all the naysayers have are jibes and jokes, while the Trust has a full size, and operational, Peppercorn A1 in retort!

[Bill Bedford]

Odd that all the naysayers have are jibes and jokes, while the Trust has a full size, and operational, Peppercorn A1 in retort!

Which for all intents and purposes no more that a bl**dy expensive fairground ride.
I would be much more impressed if all this talent and money had gone into solving problems that exist today and in the foreseeable future. It is symptomatic of a country that has lost its purpose and would rather live in some idealised imagined past than face the world as it is and how it is likely to be.

[S.A.C. Martin]

Odd that all the naysayers have are jibes and jokes, while the Trust has a full size, and operational, Peppercorn A1 in retort!

Which for all intents and purposes no more that a bl**dy expensive fairground ride.
I would be much more impressed if all this talent and money had gone into solving problems that exist today and in the foreseeable future. It is symptomatic of a country that has lost its purpose and would rather live in some idealised imagined past than face the world as it is and how it is likely to be.

Sorry Bill, but I think you've completely missed the point of Tornado and most of the other high profile railway preservation projects. Granted, there are other causes we can all spend our money on - I myself raise money for Cancer Research UK - but it's our choice as individuals who we give to, and how much we give to said projects, and Tornado for me, personally, is no more, and no less, a good cause for me to spend my money on than any of the rest of them.

"The Tornado Effect" has already given quite a few preserved railways up and down the country some of the best passenger numbers they've had at galas for a very long time. Good for keeping our preserved pieces in working order and maintaining the permanent way on which they run.

I think I'd better leave it there as this will only descend into further argument. I will say for the record that Tornado does indeed solve a problem of today and for the foreseeable future - what happens when the current crop of engines for our preserved fleet are beyond repair? Build a new one.

I'm only sorry that you feel the need to force your views on everyone else in such a manner, on a thread that was intended to be a lighthearted bit of fun.

[CVR1865]

Simierski makes a good point, it is the result of freedom of expression and choice that Tornado is able to be manufacured and run. There are challenges that face the Rail industry and the country but these are not of our making. I am far happier in a nation that permits indulgence and folly like Tornado than a nation so staunchly uptight and motivated only by creating a percieved future through wiping away the past. THere is an incredible amount of work and direction being done in the Uk and across Europe ot create a world for tomorrow, it is unlikely to resemblee the one we have now. The money invested in Tornado is genuine peanuts when even compared to the budget deficit or the amount taken off Network Rail so far.

Anger and condemnation of these things in generally a sign of people looking out their window and realising they don't know the world they see anymore and the fear of the unknown is expressed by blaming and condmeing instead of attempting to embrace and cherish everything we have and will achieve going forward.

This is still GREAT Britain and it should be proud of its past accepting the limitations of hindsight and go forward to build an equally strong encompassing and proud future for everyone.

[Atlantic 3279]

If we ever do see this locomotive completed and working, perhaps the owners might consider giving it one name in particular, in ironic comment upon some of the above exchanges, i.e: "Bill Bedford"

[52A]

I don't understand the fixation with scottish names. They were built in Doncaster, never reached their potential in Scotland and didn't head south until the poisoned dwarf got at them and then they were rubbish! In light of recent posts perhaps the name should be Owld Grumpy!

[ajax103]

Although I am probably going to be in the minority, why not Gerald Fiennes - probably one of the best railway managers there was.

Former Western and Eastern Region General Manager for starters.

[richard]

52A: It doesn't have to, but the original 6 had interesting names related to the country surrounding the Edinburgh-Aberdeen route.


Richard

[third-rail]

i still think northeastern enterprise fits the p2