61070 wrote:Continuing the series of pictures taken on Thursday 16th August 1962.
The wooden hut beyond was a small shed where a stock of components, such as vacuum brake and steam heating connections, was kept by the Carriage & Wagon Examiners for ready use in case of a fault on a train.
I apologise for not publishing on here for a while, but my computer has died a tragic death, I'm having to use the computer in our local library and can't scan any pictures.
A quick comment before my time runs out. I'm pleased see a photograph of the famous wooden hut at the north end of the station. Somebody had very neatly written on the door, 'The Royal Box', I suspect it was probably one of the staff, I'd like to know the reason why this was so named!
The great dare was to stand in the hut when a train, preferably steam, passed at high speed, the thing used to shake itself almost to bits, particularly so when a Pacific had one of those epic wheelspins, I often wondered how it never eventually 'creeped' off the platform edge.
I can't make out any writing on there on your photo, but this useless Local Authority computer won't let me zoom in on the door.
Hello Firbeck - and welcome back. Hope you get on board again properly soon, so we can see more of your classic pictures.
That's a great story about standing inside the little hut. I never thought the photo of the footplatemen would create so much interest and information. You'd never have guessed, though, but there are two pictures of this scene taken a few moments apart, and the second one - well, look what you can see written on the door! (In the first picture it's hidden by the head of one of the men.)
Who'd have though I'd be in touch with someone who remembers a tiny detail like that?
On this afternoon in summer 1962 at least five A4s paraded through Grantham before us, including the three members of the class which are now in UK and North American national museum collections.
These pictures are from one of the few of our visits which remains undated, so any assistance with identifying the date will be very gratefully received. It's possible that people reading this could have notes etc. which may provide evidence either to confirm or to eliminate one or more of the suggested dates.
From information already available I'm suggesting the following Thursdays in 1962: 28th June, 5th July or 12th July.
The locos seen were as follows (in order of appearance):
(loco / shed plate if visible / direction+ line / train)
60017 34A Up Main - light engine
60008 34A Up Main - express passenger (calling)
60014 Dn Main – train/headlamps not in shot (calling)
60112 reversing off shed - light engine
D0280 Up Main - 1B21 (The Sheffield Pullman) (calling)
60022 Up Main - express passenger (calling)
60010 34A Dn Goods Loop - express freight Class 3/4 or C (standing+departing)
I recently sent the data to Tommy Knox for comparison with his database. Although he has information for some of the above locos on some of the suggested dates, there is insufficient data to be conclusive. So it's over to the forum.
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1. Yes, I was there! I still have the abcs (though, unfortunately, not my spotting notes from this period) and also the briefcase, which was a promotional item given to Dad by a commercial traveller for Falcon and Coventry Eagle cycles. Probably at the north end of platform 3 (now 2), near where the group of footplatemen were standing in the last picture (note the fence and its shadow).
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2. 60008 on an up passenger train. I remember this scene very well, because I asked Dad who it was that this loco was named after. From his reply I recall that it was very clear that 'Ike' was a man for whom he had the highest regard - as did many of his generation.
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3. The train is just moving off – one of the pair of regulator handles is visible in front of the fireman in a partly opened position; the driver's hand is on the other.
60008 is on display at the National Railroad Museum at Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA.
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4. Train 1B21 was the 15:20 from Sheffield Victoria to London King’s Cross, The Sheffield Pullman.
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5. A passenger on The Sheffield Pullman.
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Last edited by 61070 on Wed May 12, 2010 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
6. Conversation between Guard and (possibly) shunter, on either platform 2 or platform 5.
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7. A sparkling 60022 awaits departure southbound. Now in the UK NRM collection, of course.
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8. A series of three photographs of 60010 Dominion of Canada on a northbound fully fitted express freight which has paused in the goods loop, possibly for a locomotive change.
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9. Looking through from the main line platform. The posters on the left advertise the delights of Gorleston-on-Sea, Weymouth, Blackpool, St. Ives, Portrush and Holidays in Railway Camping Coaches.
Unfortunately this photograph suffers a little from camera shake. Is that a 'peak' beyond the WD?
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10. 60010 moves off northbound. It's now at the Canadian National Railway Museum near Montreal.
Those - such as myself - with too much time on their hands, will notice a further example (with 60010) of a 60's Top Shed A4 in reasonable external condition - but running around with a 'neglected' nameplate.
60021 being another case in point...can't always put the blame on New England!
Rather surprising, given the long time attitude to 34A smartness fostered by Peter Townend.
Compares with the mention in the Steam Days at Haymarket book of the apprentices being sent out armed with black, or red, paintpots to 'touch up' their 64A plate backgrounds...
The eleganht guy in the Pullman is reading an advert for Skegness - So Bracing!
Interesting to note that the sliding windows on 6008's cab are green and not varnished teak, also cab handrails are black. Closeup photos are fantastic!
61070: D0280 on 1B21 up would be at Grantham at approximately 16.25. Using this as a template of the other sightings at this particular time 60008 may be on either 1E29 12.45 up Hull -Doncaster-King's Cross or 1E12 13.00 Harrogate-K/X from Leeds. 60017 a down train to Grantham then light engine to Peterborough, from where it then took 1A37, up Northumbrian from Newcastle, on to London. It was a frequent performer on this working in summer 1962. 60022 is possibly on 1B11 16.28 Doncaster -King's Cross, again a very regular duty for '22'in summer and autumn 1962. 60014 may be on the 14.05 K/X- York semi -fast , another regular 34A Pacific in summer 62, the engine returning on 3E03 up overnight parcels from York. Finally 60010, a curious mix of stock, possibly the lunchtime C12.25p.m. King's Cross to York parcels and stock. Speculative but may be of some help.
Thanks, stembok, for the suggestions relating to possible services being worked - the research involved is appreciated.
Here's the information on sightings of the listed locomotives that Tommy's kindly provided from his database:
28th June – none, so it is unlikely to be this date
5th July – 10 on Gateshead shed and 17 on up pass into Kings Cross
12th July – 8 Leeds train into Kings Cross, 112 on Gateshead shed
As you can see, on 5th and 12th July one of the locos sighted at Grantham was also seen at Gateshead shed on the same day. However, I as don't think we know when in the day each sighting on Tyneside was, this is clearly quite compatible with seeing the same locomotive at Grantham perhaps a few hours earlier/later.
I've just emailed the Met Office Archive, as they should be able to provide a general description of what the weather was doing on each of the days.
I've just had a reply from the Met. Office Archive, which I'm copying for interest as it can help narrow down the possibilities when reserching the dates of photographs. I supplied the three suggested dates and said that, from the pictures, the weather appears to have been bright with occasional hazy sunshine.
This is what they have come back with:
Below I have provided a brief summary of the weather conditions on each of these dates as well as providing the sunshine amounts for each date from our observing sites at Cranwell and Waddington.
28th June 1962 - Mainly rather cloudy but dry apart from occasional drizzle mainly across western areas. Some bright or sunny periods in eastern districts. Temperatures a little below average for June.
Sunshine amount at Cranwell: 6.0 hours
Sunshine amount at Waddington: 6.0 hours
5th July 1962 - Cool and cloudy with a little rain in most areas.
Sunshine amount at Cranwell: 0.4 hours
Sunshine amount at Waddington: 0.0 hours
12th July 1962 - Thundery showers or outbreaks of rain across most areas but also some bright or sunny intervals. Temperatures were near or below average.
Sunshine amount at Cranwell: 3.4 hours
Sunshine amount at Waddington: 2.9 hours
I think, looking at the above summaries, you can rule out the 5th.
Cranwell is about 11 miles N and Waddington 20 miles N.
Not really conclusive, but helpful nevertheless. Pity it wasn't tipping down all day on two of the dates!
61070: am I wrong or is the top light on the Pullman coach open? It appears to be pushed back. Also one of the sliding windows in the Yard Box is also pushed back. You are wearing your overcoat, but it appears to be partially unbuttoned- a warmish, changeable day weather wise perhaps? The newspaper might be worth a look at. I wonder if it's a national daily or perhaps a regional afternoon edition, bought perhaps in Sheffield. Possibly the latter with the Skegness link on top of one of the pages? Finally, is there a reason why you might not have been at school on the day in question? Special holiday? Usually schools broke up for summer around July 20th in the north east with some variations, but other areas had 'wakes weeks' etc. Glorious speculation, your photo displays are better than a crime 'whodunnit'!
P.S. Were any other diesel photographs taken on the day in question as these are often a good marker for times and in some cases dates?
Last edited by stembok on Sat May 15, 2010 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
google: shows a John Walsh Ltd department store in Sheffield, which would have been there in 1962 .Established in 1876, it is now reportedly a branch of TJ Hughes. The Sheffield evening paper has from 1937 been titled 'The Star', again according to google.May well be worth a look.
Thanks for all the clues and research guys - wonderful stuff, and I believe that it's only a matter of time now (and perhaps a visit to the Local Studies section of Sheffield City Library) before this one is cracked!
Re. the beginning of of school holidays, I'm sure that in Leicester we finished around the end of the last week in June then; certainly in a diary of mine that I have from 1966 Friday 1st July was the day we broke up that year. This would tend to cast some doubt on the 28th June date, though I'm not excluding that for the moment.
From what I was wearing (jacket, shirt and vest under the raincoat!) it would seem that we went prepared for rain, and that it perhaps hadn't been forecast to be a very warm day. My father generally erred on the side of ensuring that I wore an extra layer or two in any changeable weather situation ("You can always take them off.").
I'm sure that the newspaper being read by the gent in the 2nd class Pullman Car now holds the key to this one. Incidentally, because the area to the right of his window is brown instead of cream, he's seated at the front table of the first coach, immediately behind the guard's/luggage section. From the research you've very kindly done it would indeed appear to be one of the Sheffield newspapers of the day. I think that the department store advert is fairly conclusive on this. It's also good to learn that the Lions' games in S. Africa were held on Wednesdays, hence no doubt their topicality on the Thursday - which helps to confirm that these pictures were indeed most likely taken on a Thursday afternoon (Leicester shops' half-day closing) like all others I've been able to date. It has to be a weekday, as I believe that The Sheffield Pullman only ran Mon-Fri. My reading of the sports headline is 'RUGBY - It's so democratic![?]', with room for some doubt over the 'democratic!' The sports writer's pen-name, 'Vulcan', would also indicate a link with the steel city.
There are copies of all Sheffield papers on microfilm in the Sheffield Local Studies collection, so I'm going to ask if they have anyone who can look at them for me (some libraries do operate a research service for a fee - which is usually much cheaper than making a special trip from any distance). If they don't , I'll have to try to call in sometime when travelling the M1, as I do several times a year.
This is all brilliant stuff and the broader benefit, when we do get to the date, will some new dated pacific sightings for Tommy Knox's database.
Last edited by 61070 on Sun May 16, 2010 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Update: I've just sent an email enquiry re. the newspaper to Sheffield Local Studies Library - they cover the first 30mins of a search as part of their service.
