The Hatfield-Hertford branch 1966-1970

[Mickey]

I guess some of this has been covered before on other pages but i thought i'd put my two pennies worth in (for historical record). In October 1966 my family moved from North London to Welwyn Garden City in a house that was not very far from the old Hatfield to Hertford railway line that was still layed in at this point in time at the back of our new house not far from Holwell Hyde level crossing. Shortly after moving in sometime around Christmas of 1966 or the new year of 1967 i noticed a train (it was a ballast train cutting up the redundent track) what looked like was standing stationary on the railway line for several hours before moving on?. I took a walk over to the railway line to have a look to see what was happening and noticed that all the track from the Hertford direction had been cut up but was still laying in the ballast?. I walked along the track towards the Hertford direction as far as the Holwell Hyde level crossing gates and the track was still laying in the ballast but it had been cut up in about 20ft length pieces?. Anyway, several days went by and when i next took a walk over to the old railway line all the track had gone!. Holwell Hyde level crossing gates were still there as was the next set of crossing gates going in a westerly direction towards Welwyn Garden City railway station at a place called 'the Ridgeway' just several hundred yards beyond which a buffer stop had been put at the end of the severed ralway line opposite the Lincoln Electrics factory. Sometime around 1970 a friend and myself walked the old track bed from Welwyn Garden City to Hertford, this was long before the local councils made it an 'official walking route' in the 80s or 90s?. I can't remember to much about the walk (it was 40 years ago) but i do remember that the level crossing gates at the Ridgeway and Holwell Hyde level crossings were still there (in fact both Holwell Hyde and the Ridgeway level crossing gates were still there in 1974 as far as i can remember?) but both sets of gates had chains and pad-locks on them also we did find the old Hertingfordbury railway station it was a single platform amongst alot of foliage, trees and undergrowth, amazingly we found an old 'distant signal arm' that was laying beside a signal post along the old route of the single line in the undergrowth very near to Hertingfordbury station which i guess must have been the Cowbridge distant signal?. Micky

[BHornsey]

It didn't take 'em long to rip up a closed railway!

The distant signal was probably Hertford Nth's, located between Hertingfordbury and Horns Mill viaduct.

I was in Hertingfordbury a couple of years ago and I think the station buildings and the overbridge are still in situ. The buildings are now a private residence.

Brian

[Mickey]

Yes, to be honest we don't remember seeing a building (well i don't) on the station platform?, because the whole area of the former Hertingfordbury station was 'dark' even in day light when my friend and myself walked it on that day because that whole area was covered in small trees, foliage & undergrowth but you could still make out the station platform it was situated quite near to Hertford north where the viaduct carries the line across the valley from Bayford station to Hertford north station. By the looks of it today from pictures on the web alot of the former track-bed has been 'cleaned up' and is now a 'nature trail' since the 90s but it wasn't like that back in 1970. Micky *PS I believe that the children's tv programme CATWEAZLE was filmed at Hertingfordbury station in series two which was filmed sometime in 1970 and shown on the tv in 1971 because i've got both series one & two and it says it was in the booklet in with the dvds. Obviously my friend and myself went there before filming started.

[giner]

I've been away from Stevenage for over 30 years now, and that's very interesting reading about the old WGC to Hertford branch. Thank you.

Has something similar been done, i.e. 'nature trail', etc., with the WGC to Luton branch?

Micky, tell me you 'preserved' the distant you found.

[Mickey]

Sorry Giner, that old distant signal was left where we found it i was only 13 yrs old at the time but i knew what it was because i was into railway signalling at the tender age of 11 yrs old!!!. I had bought a hard back copy of the Ian Allan book of British Railway signalling (if some of you remember it?) in 1968!. My friend who was abit older than me and who i was walking with had been a 'telegraph lad' in Welwyn Garen City s/box about 6 or 7 years earlier so yes we knew what it was. Even though it was 40 years ago i thought my friend said it was the 'old Cowbridge distant signal' i'm fairly sure he said that?. Just for the record we actually walked from Hertford back towards Welwyn Garden City (east to west) i also vaguely recall walking passed Cole Green and the 'long walk' (rising gradient) up towards Holwell Hyde level crossing gates because on our left was an old quarry and also there was a strong smell of old rubbish in the air an open land rubbish dump, i did know that area because i use to live about a half a mile further along the old line but i never went beyond the Holwell Hyde level crossing gates. Going back to Hertingfordbury station like i said before the main thing that i remember (other than the distant signal and signal post) was how 'dark'ish' it was because of all the foliage and branches and undergrowth in that area and like i said before aswell i'm sure that i don't recall seeing a station building on the old platform but maybe i just didn't notice it amongst the foliage?. My friend and myself did also walk the old Hatfield to Luton branch around the sametime and i did write abit about it on another page but i may re-write it again under a new heading because that was an interesting walk aswell. Micky

[Dave Cockle]

Sorry Giner, that old distant signal was left where we found it i was only 13 yrs old at the time but i knew what it was because i was into railway signalling at the tender age of 11 yrs old!!!. I had bought a hard back copy of the Ian Allan book of British Railway signalling (if some of you remember it?) in 1968!. My friend who was abit older than me and who i was walking with had been a 'telegraph lad' in Welwyn Garen City s/box about 6 or 7 years earlier so yes we knew what it was. Even though it was 40 years ago i thought my friend said it was the 'old Cowbridge distant signal' i'm fairly sure he said that?. Just for the record we actually walked from Hertford back towards Welwyn Garden City (east to west) i also vaguely recall walking passed Cole Green and the 'long walk' (rising gradient) up towards Holwell Hyde level crossing gates because on our left was an old quarry and also there was a strong smell of old rubbish in the air an open land rubbish dump, i did know that area because i use to live about a half a mile further along the old line but i never went beyond the Holwell Hyde level crossing gates. Going back to Hertingfordbury station like i said before the main thing that i remember (other than the distant signal and signal post) was how 'dark'ish' it was because of all the foliage and branches and undergrowth in that area and like i said before aswell i'm sure that i don't recall seeing a station building on the old platform but maybe i just didn't notice it amongst the foliage?. My friend and myself did also walk the old Hatfield to Luton branch around the sametime and i did write abit about it on another page but i may re-write it again under a new heading because that was an interesting walk aswell. Micky

An interesting read Micky. The former station house at Hertingfordbury has always been lived in since the line closed and thus it has remained in good condition. Mrs Flanders, the widow of a fomer platelayer, lived in the house for over forty years, until hear death in the 1970's. I was involved in a scheme to try and establish a railway museum there after Mrs Flander's death and an approach was made to Hertford County Council. The idea was that the Great Molewood Railway Museum belonging to Jack Waldock would move there but the County Council declined to reach any agreement with Jack. The house was used by Hertford Counry Council as accommodation to let for school teachers. The Great Molewood Railway Museum was on the down side of the Hertford Loop at the North portal of Molewood Tunnel.

Dave Cockle

[Mickey]

Hello to everyone. I've had abit more of a think about this walk and also another minor thing comes to mind about the line. First the walk may have taken place not in 1970 but a year earlier in 1969?. Like i said it has been 40 odd years ago since we walked it so i am abit 'fuzzy' in regards to exact dates. The other thing was over the back to where i was living in late 1966 (until 1974) and for several months into 1967 the railway line was still layed-in there stood a concrete p.w. 'platelayers hut' (which was about midway between the Ridgeway level crossing and Holwell Hyde level crossing) and next to it was the base of and about 2ft high of a 'lattice signal post' that thinking about it i think it must have been the Holwell Hyde level crossing 'gate distant' signal post?. At Holwell Hyde level crossing about 200 yrds on the approach side to the level crossing coming from Welwyn Garden City station and going towards Hertford STILL stands a railway house which i would presume is now a private residents well i would say that that house was probably the 'crossing keepers house' at onetime in the past, the house is still there to this day. Micky

[StevieG]

Just wondered if 'we'd like to see a B&W photo of Cole Green station which I have just found to be on eBay auction at the moment ( 20:30BST, 09/04/10 : web-link below).
Its 'auction' is dated to run until the 8th May, but as it's a "Buy Now" item, it might be bought at any time, ending its 'auction', which may make it unviewable.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... EL:GB:1123

[ P.S. No, - I'm not, and don't know, the seller, so I've nothing to promote or gain from this mention.]

[Mickey]

Just a few more recollections of the Hertford branch. At the Welwyn Garden City end of the Hertford branch just as the branch curved away from the main line there stood until (atleast late 1973 and maybe several more years after that?) 'two' tall'ish LNER concrete 'redundent' signal posts. I would presume that they once carried Welwyn Garden City's down Hertford branch starting signal (WGC track diagram shows this signal was no 74) and also coming the other way from Hertford Welwyn Garden City's up Hertford branch home signal (WGC track diagram shows this signal was no 83). Near to where these two redundent signal posts stood was Welwyn Garden City's up slow line outter home signal no 49 mounted on a medium size LNER concrete post the signal arm was mounted slighty further down the post and a 'sighting board' was also provided behind the arm, standing directly opposite this signal on the up fast line was Welwyn Garden City's up fast line outter home signal no 34 that was a 'co-acting' signal with one signal arm at driver's cab level and another taller arm mounted higher up the post the signal post being a 'tall lattice' signal post. Leaving the main line the Hertford branch curved sharply away to the east and very shortly afterwards crossed a small foot & vehicle crossing into a factory. Passing over the small crossing the line then crossed an iron bridge over the Bessamer road (which is still there only today instead of the railway being layed across it it is a road for vehicles to gain access to another factory). Once over the bridge the line decends towards the Hertford direction and passed another factory were back in the early/mid 1970s (maybe up to 1981?) a siding with three roads existed one road was for running round a train and the other two roads were for stableling. I can remember seeing trains of several wagons (maybe 5 or 6 wagons?) sometimes being stabled in these sidings up to the early months of 1974 and presumably for several years longer until what was left of the freight traffic ceased on the branch in 1981?. The other interesting thing about these sidings was that up to late 1973 (maybe longer?) a tall'ish 'redundent' LNER concrete signal post stood near to where the points gained access into the sidings was situated. I would presume that at one time this 'redundent signal post' would have carried Welwyn Garden City's up Hertford branch 'fixed distant' signal because the fittings at the top of the post suggested that the signal arm was facing on coming trains from Hertford to Welwyn Garden City and also i couldn't imagine that this distant signal could have been 'worked' from a lever in Welwyn Garden City s/box as it would have been 'one hell of a pull' to clear it!. What was left of the Hertford branch continued for another 400 yards or so until the line terminated at a buffer stop. Opposite this buffer stop was the Lincoln Electrics factory which held a two road siding one road for running round. Both or these two sidings were worked by 'hand points' but i would have guessed that at onetime they would have been worked by 'ground frames' each to gain access to them. On a recent visit to this area (summer 2009) all the track around Lincoln Electrics factory and further back towards Welwyn Garden City railway station appears to have been lifted probably a number of years ago?. Micky

[R. pike]

Here is the Hertford end of Welwyn Garden City box diagram..

http://richard2890.fotopic.net/p54349898.html

I remember being able to see a concrete signal post from the main line. No83 perhaps?

[StevieG]

Micky, (and RP),
Yep, I remember those first two posts round on the Hert. line at WGC still standing, 74 & 83. One was a fair bit taller than the other, but I forget which was which.
About the distant. Not sure where exactly it was from your description Micky, but if it was about 1500-1600 yards from WGC Box (thanks for that photo again RP: Pity, like most LNE/ER diags., distances for individual signals were not shown), that wouldn't have ruled it out from being workable once upon a time.
From seeing an old, old, diagram, of when the Hertford (& Luton) lines were simply plain single lines passing through the outer platforms of the 'young' WGC station (sometime pre-1940), pretty sure that all the signals (including 'your' distant) were workable (though the Hert. line Up distant then, might not have been at the same place as 'yours').

As examples of other potentially difficult mechanical distants:
- The up distant at Hertford North was, according to the box diagram, 2,367 yards (over 1 1/4 miles) from the box, several hundred yards north of Molewood Tunnel [yet, bearing that in mind, surprisingly it wasn't much of a hard pull].
- After 1970, Canonbury Station box on the Nth.London line, mechanically worked the up distant from Finsbury Park for the nearby junction. That distant was under Fins.Park No.1 Box's Up Canonbury line Starting signal, adjacent to Drayton Park bridge and station. I estimate that it was only about 1,000 yards from Canonbury Station box, but the wire run went right through Canonbury Tunnel, with also the curve from the junction well into the tunnel to cope with on the way, which turns through approx. 90-degrees. This one was a heavy pull. I could get it 'Off' in one, but I think some of the regular men were quite happy to find excuses to leave it at Caution (for one thing, they were probably annoyed that it had been transferred to their box on the abolition of Canonbury Junction box without being motorised).

That old distant in the grass, Micky ; - Do you think it could have been about 3/4 mile from Hertingfordbury station? I ask, because I seem to recall learning that Hertford North's WGC line distant [it couldn't have been for Hertford GNR ('Cowbridge'); - too far away], was not far from Hertford Viaduct, near a ground frame connection to a siding that veered off to the right, under the viaduct and on in an E. / to S. of E., direction towards Horns Road, and that's about, I think, how far that spot would've been from Hertingfordbury. That position for Hert. North's distant might not seem far from the box and its WGC line home signals, but the low speed for the west-to-north curve, plus it was quite a climb from going under the viaduct to getting up to just below the Box's level, and that would've allowed the distant to be much closer than might be expected, but still give sufficient braking distance.

The only other distant I would have expected along that Hertingfordbury area stretch, would've been Cole Green's Up (you may know there was a box there with a crossing loop through the station; the box could be switched out, and that procedure was quite complex in order to conclude, in a safe way, with its signals 'off' in both directions at the same time), but I would think that would have been just under a mile, at least, from Hert'bury station.

[manna]

G'Day Gents
I can confirm that Canonbury Tunnel distant, was very rarely pulled off, which always kept our speed down, not that it was very fast through Canonbury tunnel anyway
manna

[StevieG]

G'Day Gents
I can confirm that Canonbury Tunnel distant, was very rarely pulled off, which always kept our speed down, not that it was very fast through Canonbury tunnel anyway
manna

I imagine that that Distant 'On', even with a low speed, still left you coming to the end of the tunnel on that left-hand bend, looking hard for the big old-left-hand bracket standing on the right outside the end of the tunnel, to see if it was at Danger or 'Off'

[manna]

G'Day Gents
The fireman/secondmans job was to duck down as low possible on 47's and 31's to see the signal as early as possible, a lot harder on 40' & 46's although those two classes were rare around that area.
manna

[Mickey]

Hello to everyone, i remember hearing a story about Finsbury Park No1s down Cannonbury line distant signal the one that stood near the mouth of Cannonbury tunnel going towards Finsbury Park that apparently this distant signal was 'very rarely' pulled off and that one day a freightliner from Stratford FLT came around the curve off of Cannonbury Junction and that this distant signal was showing a 'good off' the arm being at 45 degrees!. Anyway, the driver stops his train outside Finsbury Park No1 box and leans out of the cab window and shouts out to the 'bobby' "Thats the first f****g time in 10 years that i've seen that distant signal showing off!." Richard, that track diagram of Welwyn Garden City s/box i havan't seen that since about June of 1973!. To be honest when i first went to Welwyn Garden City box the Ayot branch which is shown on your diagram wasn't shown on the box diagram not with signals shown on it anyway, the Ayot branch was by then just worked under the 'one engine in steam' regulations towards Blackbridge sidings i'm pretty sure that there was a 'train staff' on or near the block shelf around the Luton end of the lever frame in 1972/73. Signals nos 74 & 83 on the Hertford branch wasn't shown either on the Welwyn Garden City track diagram when i was there the old Hertford branch by then had been down graded to 'sidings status'. Looking at the distant signal on the Hertford branch which was Welwyn Garden City's up branch distant signal i think it says 'FIXED' beside it on the diagram so i guess it was a 'fixed distant' after all, that would have been a 'long pull' especially around those curves after the branch leaves the main line up around nos 34 & 49 signals. Stevie, that distant signal that my friend and myself found at Hertingfordbury beside the line near the signal post well it was along long time ago and like i mentioned may have been in 1969 and not 1970?. The track had been lifted i'm pretty sure of that and like i said i'm sure my friend said it was the 'old Cowbridge distant signal' thats not to say that it was the Cowbridge distant thats just what i remember him saying?. To be honest it was all new to me i can't really remember where we started the walk from i presume it was near Hertford north station?. I do remember that part of the walk around Hertingfordbury station and finding the distant signal arm beside the signal post, knowing me at that time i may have suggested carrying the signal arm back home and believe it or not now i think of it abit more I DID HAVE A distant signal arm in my dads shed at home!. The more i think of this whole thing the more things turn up in my mind!!. Stevie, i read on John Hinson's website that i guess that your aware of that Hertford north box had at onetime in the past the 'longest pull' in the country for his up distant signal.