High Dyke-Frodingham Iron ore...route?

[rob237]

Was the route taken on these workings always the same, or were available options in use?
Perhaps the logical journey would be via the Grantham-Lincoln line, diverging at Honington Junction.

Whilst 02's and Austerities were the usual locos, there seemed to be regular early evening Pacific turn too.
Recall seeing a series of pictures with A3 Diamond Jubilee setting off from High Dyke box.

A reason for my route query was remembering the surprising sight of Haymarket A4 60027 crawling north through Newark with iron ore, in the late 50's.

BTW: Why was Merlin, by far, the most commonly seen Scottish A4 south of Donny...coincidence or what?
Whereas, say, William Whitelaw and Golden Plover seemed confined only to the 'Elizabethan'!.

Cheers
Robt P.

[Pyewipe Junction]

If it had taken the Grantham to Lincoln line, then Lincoln to Frodingham, it would have had to reverse at Lincoln and Barnetby.

[BHornsey]

Hi.

In the 1952 WTT for Lincoln, Highdyke - Frodingham Iron Ore traffic ran via Barkston, Waddington, Lincoln (Pyewipe Jn to run round) and Market Rasen to Wrawby where it would run round again.

Later, it ran via Newark, Lincoln St Marks to Wrawby.

Brian

[stembok]

rob237:One of the Pacific worked iron ore trains in the early 1960s ran to the Rotherham area and several photographs of various Pacifics on this train have appeared. One working may have been a Saturday afternoon job.
Re: appearances of 60027 probably just luck, though she did have a reputation as a reliable engine and was a Haymarket favourite on 'The Elizabethan'. A4 60031 made quite a few appearances. I remember her in 1959 and 1961, A4 60004 on the other hand made fewer appearances, particularly in the later years of the service down to 1961

[stembok]

Re: last post. Came across a photo of 60065 northbound at Retford with a train of vacuum fitted iron ore tipplers and carrying a Class C headcode. Possibly to Parkagte Works, Aldewark near Rotherham, from High Dyke.

[rob237]

Many thanks for your respective inputs...

The initial Honington routeing, followed by the later Northgate/St Marks trip, appears logical based on sightings.
Seems the 'run arounds' were an integral part of the journey.

Stembok's prompt re Aldwarke reminds me that the same destination was mentioned within the caption, in my opening reference to the A3 setting off from High Dyke. Also reminded that I've seen the 60065 photo at Retford...IIRC, rather side on and traversing the flat crossing?.

Cheers
Robt P

[High Street Crossing]

Fascinating discussion of the various routes from Grantham to Frodingham which brought back fond memories of forays from Lincoln to Grantham in the early/mid 1960s.

Not sure quite how relevant this is - but perhaps I can add to the discussion. On my various visits to Grantham at this time, I always remember one of the highlights of the day was an early afternoon northbound "iron ore" train headed by a Southern region Type 3 Crompton (D65xx). Obviously very unusual to see such locos at Grantham. I've often wondered where this train had come from (somewhere south of Thames presumably), where it was going (Frodingham seems likely) and how it got there? Such locos were never seen at Lincoln (at least to my knowledge) so that would rule out a route via Lincoln. Also I never recalled seeing this train on my occasional visits to Retford around the same time. So that suggests a South Yorkshire destination was unlikely as was a route to Frodingham via Retford/Doncaster. This led me to think that it left the ECML north of Grantham and reached Frodingham via Sleaford and East Lincolnshire Line (seems a long way round - but avoids the need for any reversing).

A few months back I did stumble on the web of a picture of a Crompton north of Peterbrough in the early 1970s. The caption says it is hauling chemicals - so maybe my memory of it being an iron ore train is mistaken (as a 10 year old, I'm not sure I would have understood the difference!). But again, the question arises where had this train come from and where was it going?

So if anyone has any knowledge of Cromptons (or other Southern Region based locos) hauling iron ore or chemical trains through Grantham and Lincolnshire in the 1960s/1970s perhaps they can enlighten me.

[52D]

A Southern region cement train is a possibility 61070 will be able to elaborate more possibly.

[stembok]

The Crompton would be the Cliffe (Kent)-Uddingston (Glasgow) bulk cement 4S37, the Crompton working as far as York and returning on 4O92 empties.

[61070]

Hello High Street Crossing,

As stembok says, the Crompton-hauled trains that came through Grantham in the 1960s were the Cliffe (Kent) - Uddingston (Lanarkshire) cement train, and the southbound empties. This was a regular working, and we saw the up (empty) train nearly every Thursday afternoon when we were there. It was a highlight for me too - never saw these locos anywhere else in the Midlands.

There has been some discussion on the cement train previously (including photos) here:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2322&hilit=uddingston

Re. the ironstone trains from High Dyke, retired Grantham men have told me that they worked trains of fitted Iron Ore Tipplers to Rotherham, using pacifics. Plate 8 of Colin Walker's Trails of Steam Vol.6 - Trails through Grantham shows 60137 (a Tyneside-based locomotive) on one of the High Dyke to Aldwarke fitted ironstone workings.

[Pyewipe Junction]

Hi.

In the 1952 WTT for Lincoln, Highdyke - Frodingham Iron Ore traffic ran via Barkston, Waddington, Lincoln (Pyewipe Jn to run round) and Market Rasen to Wrawby where it would run round again.

Later, it ran via Newark, Lincoln St Marks to Wrawby.

Brian

A favourite spotting location in Lincoln for several of us from 1958 to 1963 was where the Lincoln to Grantham line went under the avoiding ('High') line.

I can say with absolute confidence that we never saw an iron ore train on the Grantham line. The only freight using the Grantham line was the daily afternoon return from Holmes Yard to Lincoln gasworks at Bracebridge. If the Frodingham iron ore reversed at Pyewipe Junction, then (1) the guards van would have had to be moved from one end of the train the to the other and (2) the locomotive would have had to have been turned, unless it went tender first to Wrawby.

[StevieG]

The Crompton would be the Cliffe (Kent)-Uddingston (Glasgow) bulk cement 4S37, the Crompton working as far as York and returning on 4O92 empties.

I certainly remember those in the London area, and they ran for quite a number of years if I recall correctly, though I think there was a period when they changed locos in London, with the down trains' Cromptons going back to the SR from Ferme Park down sidings.
I think they must have been still running after electrification, including Ferme Park Down Yard being transformed into FP Down Carriage Sidings, because I seem to recall a terrible staff accident when, after arrival therein, or on the adjacent Down Slow No.2 (for loco change I think), for some legitimate reason the SR guard absent-mindedly climbed up to the top of one of the tanks. - Which sadly made it his last 'turn' on this earth.

[AndyRush]

Brian[/quote]

A favourite spotting location in Lincoln for several of us from 1958 to 1963 was where the Lincoln to Grantham line went under the avoiding ('High') line.

I can say with absolute confidence that we never saw an iron ore train on the Grantham line. The only freight using the Grantham line was the daily afternoon return from Holmes Yard to Lincoln gasworks at Bracebridge. If the Frodingham iron ore reversed at Pyewipe Junction, then (1) the guards van would have had to be moved from one end of the train the to the other and (2) the locomotive would have had to have been turned, unless it went tender first to Wrawby.[/quote]

The situation in the early 1950’s was that services between Scunthorpe (Frodingham) and Grantham (Highdyke and Belvoir) and vice versa were routed via the Honington Junction - Lincoln line and were booked to run to West Holmes, where the locomotive was detached to go to Pyewipe locomotive sidings to turn and take water. After this the locomotive ran to the other end of its train, which was provided with a brake at each end. for departure to its destination. An examination of WTT's would be necessary to be certain, but I think the trains ran to Barnetby to reverse, where a turntable was available to turn the engines if they were booked to run through.

In reality, however, at Lincoln these trains would usually take advantage of the triangular junction by running to Pyewipe or Boultham Jcn, then propelling to the next point on the triangle, so reversing the locomotive. All that was then needed was a short stop at a water column before departing.

Examination of the relevant Section H (to Summer 1958) and Section D (from Winter 1958) WTT’s in the National Archives RAIL909 series will show when the trains were rerouted via Sleaford, Boston and the East Lincs line (by 1958 according to Brian, certainly before the summer 1960 WTT), so avoiding this cumbersome procedure and multiple use of three level crossings.

The final routing of the trains via Newark and Lincoln St Marks took place after Newark Curve opened to goods traffic on 28.02.1965

Regards

Andy

[AndyRush]

As is always the way, just after posting the above, I found my 'lost' Section H WTT for Winter 1955 and found that the Highdyke - Frodingham services had been rerouted via Boston and the East Lincs line by then.

Regards

Andy

[stembok]

StevieG: I believe that the Crompton working through to York from the SR began in around early 1962. Prior to this the down cement was usually a 9F on the GN.