1946 Renumbering Scheme

[Pyewipe Junction]

With the 1946 renumbering scheme, the LNER had the most logical numbering system of the 'Big Four'. Not only were classes arranged according to wheel arrangement, but tender and tank engines were separated, as were passenger, mixed traffic and freight engines.

Which leads me to my question: why were the existing class numbers arranged in such a seemingly scattergun sequence?

As a example: J3/4, J6, J11, J35, J37, J19, J20, J39, J1, J2, J21, J10, J36, etc,

Or: D3, D2, D1, D41, D40, D31, D20, D29, D20, D29, D30, D32, D33, D34, D15/6, D10, D11, etc.

Does anyone know if there was a logic to this?

I can understand the A4s being numbered first, but what about the rest?

[52D]

Pyewipe at the grouping classes were loosely grouped in constituent company lots for example the 0-6-0 tender locos GNR J1,J2,J3,J4,J5,J6,J7. GCR J8,J9,J10, J11, J12, J13. GER J14,J15,J16,J17,J18,J19,J20. NER J21,J22,J23,J24,J25,J26,J27,J28. NBR J31,J32,J33,J34,J35,J36,J37. Spaces left in the NER lot were probably for classes that although were used early in the life of the LNER didnt last too long so were never allocated an LNER class number. The LNER designed 0-6-0 tender engines just followed on from the last NBR class.
I can reccomend Casserley & Johnstons Locomotives at the grouping 2 for further reference and somewhere on this list i did a little explanation of the numbering scheme i will post it here when i find it for you

[Bill Bedford]

With the 1946 renumbering scheme, the LNER had the most logical numbering system of the 'Big Four'. Not only were classes arranged according to wheel arrangement, but tender and tank engines were separated, as were passenger, mixed traffic and freight engines.

Which leads me to my question: why were the existing class numbers arranged in such a seemingly scattergun sequence?

As a example: J3/4, J6, J11, J35, J37, J19, J20, J39, J1, J2, J21, J10, J36, etc,

Or: D3, D2, D1, D41, D40, D31, D20, D29, D20, D29, D30, D32, D33, D34, D15/6, D10, D11, etc.

Does anyone know if there was a logic to this?

With a few exceptions, like the A4s, it was oldest first

[chaz harrison]

Anybody wanting info' about either of the renumbering schemes or the classification codes should have a look at...

http://en.allexperts.com/e/l/ln/lner_lo ... on.htm#hd3

Brilliant site with masses of accurate detail. The only thing it lacks is a complete list, number for number. I forgive it!

Chaz

[Bill Bedford]

Brilliant site with masses of accurate detail. The only thing it lacks is a complete list, number for number.

This list can be found in the RCTS vol 10A

[chaz harrison]

Ah Ha!

I didn't know that! Thanks Bill, I will seek out a copy.

Chaz

[chaz harrison]

....and the RCTS have copies at £3!!!

Chaz

[chaz harrison]

Having acquired RCTS Locomotives of the LNER Vol. 10A I looked at the numerical index. I see that it only tells part of the story. The list tells you what class of loco carried each number pre-1946 and post-1946. So, for example, the number "1" was carried by an ES1 electric loco' and later a D3. After the renumbering it was carried by an A4. What the index doesn't tell you is what number the ES1 or the D3 carried after the renumbering. Of course this information can be gleaned from the lists in each volume, but what I was looking for was a complete list that would tell me that, for instance, 4472 became 103. What the index tells me is that 4472 was an A1/A10 before 1946 and a J35 after. Not quite the same thing.

Now, the question remains - is there a book that includes a complete list of each loco's number before and after 1946?

Incidentally I don't regret buying Part 10A, it includes some fascinating stuff!

Chaz

[52D]

Chaz in my hand at this moment as i am researching is Locomotives at the Grouping part2 London & North Eastern Railway by H.C.Casserley & S.W.Johnston I got my copy from Matlock bookshop on the station platform for £3.50.
It is ok but it does what it says on the cover and does not list LNER newbuilds or post 1923 pre grouping designs built for the LNER, S3s, J72 Scottish Directors etc,

[60022Mallard]

Recently purchased on eBay was "LNER Renumbering of Locomotives 1946" a "Supplement to The Journal of the Stephenson Locomotive Society" which gives full detaiils.

Evident however from several handwritten amendments is that it is not the definitive answer.

If there are any specific ones you want to know I will be pleased to help by private message.

[chaz harrison]

I recently bought a copy of British Railway Steam Locomotives 1948-1968 by Hugh Longworth. I think this is an excellent book. Useful as a reference or just to dip into for a bit of nostalgia. It has (as an appendix) two lists of the LNER renumbering - in both directions. It also includes the interim renumbering (that had, for example, The Scotsman as 502).

Chaz

[52D]

The interim numbers are the ones that tend to catch people out. When discussing the numbering scheme i tend to tell people how the original 1923 scheme worked, then tell them about how the 1946 scheme arranged the classes in an orderley fashion. I do mention that certain classes had other numbers but in the main unless you need to go into great depth if people get thier heads round the first scheme you can usually explain the interim numbers. Incidentally i was not aware of scotsman getting an interim number was it proposed originally to give the A3s numbers in the 5xx series starting at 500?
Classes i am aware had different numbers or were renumbered were the B1s and i think some B16s were renumbered to clear a consecutive block for the B1s, K1s were numbered in a block reserved for 4-4-0s and didnt L1s start in a different series before numbering in a block.

[kudu]

The further renumbering of the B16s etc were under BR:

1 - BR B16s 61400-9 became 61469-78 in 12/1949 to make way for the last new B1s.

2 - The last surviving B7s, originally 61360-97, became 61702-13 in 4-5/1949, also to accommodate new B1s.

3 - The last D31s from the range 62059-72 (incomplete because of post-1946 LNER withdrawals) became 62281-3 in 6-8/1949 to make way for new K1s.

4 - WDs 63000-63199 became 90000-90100 & 90422-90520 in 1949-51.

5 - Only 1 L1 was built under the LNER - 9000 (also the only one built at Doncaster).

The next 12 were originally E9001-12 (I think), followed by 69013-5, all built 1948, E9000-12 becoming 69000-12.

These all became 67701-16 to make way for new J72s, which similarly started with 69001, leaving 69000 unused.

I can't be sure what early numbers were actually carried by individual L1s.

6 - Y11 petrol locos originally numbered as 68188/9 were renumbered 15098/9.

7 - various service locos were renumbered in a separate series in 1952, with other locos renumbered much later as they were transferred to service stock.

So far as I know, the above is a complete list of post-1948 renumbering of LNER locos.

The reference to the B1 renumbering is strictly irrelevant: the first 10 were built before 1946 and carried 8301-10, taking new numbers as part of the scheme.

The reference to Flying Scotsman concerns temporary renumberings from 1942, when it was 502. Maybe 50 locos involved, at a guess. Does anyone want a list?

Kudu

[50C]

Is it correct that the last batch of LMS 8F's originally had LNER numbers or am I mistaken

ie 3100 to 3167 became 3500 to 3567 which in turn became 48705 to 48772

In fact I am no sure but did the first few have an even earlier number in the 76xx series.

50C

[52D]

Yes you are correct they (the 8Fs) were classified as 06 if i remember correctly and the Austerity 2-8-0s were classed as O7s. The 76xxx may have been the WD numbering for the 8Fs
You could also be getting confused with the Austeritys, the Austeritys had numbers 7xxxx in a WD series before getting 63xxx when the LNER bought them and finally getting 9xxxx when BR bought another batch and decided to combine the ex LNER examples into it.
The Austeritys numbering is all over the place although i have got the records for the LNER examples of this class.
Tweedmouth had on its books 77002 in 1948 later 63001 and later 90001. The shed also had BR standard class 3 77002 in 1965 hows that for confusion.