Turning ECML postal vans

[BHornsey]

Hi.

Just joined the forum and I thought I would open with a question.

Post WW2, it would appear that ECML TPO services were turned in between workings using Dalston triangle.
I have in my possession a 1938 LMS Suburban WTT (North London line) and it makes no reference to this at all. A friend has a 1942 issue of the same and it isn't in that either. However, quite a few people have stated that it was a practice that occurred since the dawn of time (railway time anyway!) as there were no suitable triangles on the southern LNER (I can't think of one). In Winter 1964, the empties left Hornsey @ 11a20, Dalston 11a50 - 12p07 and returned Hornsey arr 1p15.

So, does anyone have a pre-WW2 GNR section WTT that shows how the TPOs were turned?
If you have, would you be kind enough to let me have the details, please.

Many thanks,
Brian

[lead_plug]

Hi Brian, I don't know if I've put this on before, but there is no mention of this working in the KX Suburban District WTT for winter 1946.
Alec Ramsdale

[BHornsey]

Hi Alec, didn't know you were on here as well!

If I get time, I'm going to nip to the NRM and have a look at the GN section WTTs to see how the mail vans were disposed of.

I don't think they would be shown in the Suburban WTT. If I'm not mistaken, mail line traffic and the associated ECS moves were shown in a seperate mail line WTT.
The vans must have been turned somewhere as I don't believe the TPOs had catch gear on both sides (or am I wrong on this?)
Hopefully the NRM should have something suitable (fingers crossed)

Nice to hear from you,
Brian

[52D]

I wonder as well as the possibility of only having catching gear on one side, were the sets turned to even out tyre wear. Thats the reason some turntables survived for turning HST power cars.

[Lurch]

This is my first post, so bear with me. When I was a Fireman at Hornsey (1964-68), the ECML postal vans were turned every day, being worked from Hornsey CS to Channelsea yard at Stratford, then propelled round the triangle to High Meads, and then back to Hornsey via the North London, Finsbury Park and Bounds Green. Usual motive power was what we then called a Brush 2 - that's a class 31 to you modern types - although sometimes a Sulzer or Paxman might be used. Hope this is of interest, and if any of the old Hornsey lads want to get in touch - feel free to PM me. (I wonder if anyone remembers my old mate in No.2 link, Stan Jeffries - he of the combative demeanour and colourful vocabulary.

[lead_plug]

Welcome Lurch,
On another channel we have been kicking this query around for some time without getting very far. Trust a Hornsey man to come up with the details of these 'round the houses' operations.
I fired at HSY from 1944 - 1951 and was not aware of any TPO turning taking place, but suppose that someone was doing it somewhere!
Regarding Stan Jeffries, He and I were both SWL's - Short Wave Listeners- who gained some small benefit from the outlandish hours of work by going round the bands at times when normal people were sound asleep. In the late 40's he owned a magnificent ex-Govt communications receiver which was not appreciated by his landlady, and which he passed on to me. I understand that it now reposes in the Royal Signals museum.
Stan previously worked at Louth MPD, and he was very proud of having 'mastered' some weird compound loco that gave other men some starting problems.
He was not appreciated by the late Albert Grose, whose excellent book "The Ramblings of a Great Eastern Engineman" describes a trip down on a 9F with Stan.
The last time that I went to HSY was during the demolition period. Passing through London I decided to view the old spot for the last time and was able to walk up the passage, past the offices and into the sacred area of the enginemens' mess room.
The bloke in charge told me that they had quite a lot of the old-timers popping in for a look-see. No Health and Safety Regs then!

Alec Ramsdale.

[lead_plug]

Hi Brian,
If you do manage a trip to the NRM you'll find that the LNER WTT's for
the King's Cross Suburban District cover all movements, including services to the North London and Southern Railway. Even details of LE's leaving the various MPD's are included. A fascinating wealth of information ,which makes me wish that I had looked at them when they were current. Alec.

[BHornsey]

Just spent the morning looking at the NRM's timetable archives and found several LNER WTTs covering from 1936 to 1940.
Not one of them showed any TPO services that I could recognise. I wonder if these were shown as 'special working' outside the normal timetabled services? I did note one or two express parcel trains but these called at many points en-route.

I then found a couple of books in the library outlining the history of the TPOs and found something that may explain why Dalston wasn't used to turn them, pre-War: It appears the original GNR TPOs were fitted with apparatus BOTH sides of the train!
The stock was supplemented by former GNR brakes starting in 1929 and some 24 newly constructed coaches (of which only the last 7 were actually steel!). So it would appear that during the grouping era there wasn't any need to turn TPOs.
Also, by 1940, the TPO service had been suspended until after the war.

Only once BR took over and built some standard TPO coaches did the need to turn them arise.

Brian

[hq1hitchin]

Only once BR took over and built some standard TPO coaches did the need to turn them arise.

When I first worked in the Passenger Trains Office at Kings Cross in 1967, all the TPO vans were of LNER design and were turned every day (Sundays excepted) on the 'mailvans' which ran in the morning from Hornsey CS across the North London line to Stratford where they were propelled towards Bethnal Gn and then back via the south curve at Channelsea. It wasn't so much the TPO apparatus that made it necessary to turn the vans, rather that the large sliding doors were only found on one side of the vehicle, the other side just having a set of double doors, quite unsuitable for loading mails at stations. The BR vans came along c 1969 (?) and I moved onto other things but think the trip to Stratford continued - Stevie G, where are you? I also seem to recall old hands telling me that the vans used to be turned at Dalston, when there was a triangle there. A bit of a mystery about the WTTs, certainly.

[BHornsey]

It all started due to my research of the NLL pre-war.
A 1938 WTT has no mention of these vans turning at all, even though all other LNER traffic off Canonbury is shown, and it also shows the LNWR TPOs turning at Willesden.

A couple of members of the Yahoo North London Line group also mentioned that the vans turned using Dalston triangle. However, most of these are retired staff that probably started post WW2.

I was surprised that I couldn't find any mention of postals in the GN section WTTs I read today. I looked at 1938, 39 & 40 Main line and suburban WTTs. I sat with the TPO books from the library and the WTTs and still couldn't find any correlation.
My only assumption is that the GN TPOs didn't need turning. The pictures of these showed a pair of 6 wheeled TPO coaches. As to when they were withdrawn from use it didn't state, only that the GN brake conversions lasted until the 50's.

Brian

[52D]

Backtrack special vol2 has an article on LNER TPOs Kings X - Leeds

[52A]

At Newcastle they were turned on the High Street/Greensfield triangle.

[Bill Bedford]

At Newcastle they were turned on the High Street/Greensfield triangle.

Were these the ECML trains or the Newcastle-Bristol?

[StevieG]

When I first worked in the Passenger Trains Office at Kings Cross in 1967, all the TPO vans were of LNER design and were turned every day (Sundays excepted) on the 'mailvans' which ran in the morning from Hornsey CS across the North London line to Stratford where they were propelled towards Bethnal Gn and then back via the south curve at Channelsea. It wasn't so much the TPO apparatus that made it necessary to turn the vans, rather that the large sliding doors were only found on one side of the vehicle, the other side just having a set of double doors, quite unsuitable for loading mails at stations. The BR vans came along c 1969 (?) and I moved onto other things but think the trip to Stratford continued - Stevie G, where are you? I also seem to recall old hands telling me that the vans used to be turned at Dalston, when there was a triangle there. A bit of a mystery about the WTTs, certainly.

'Propelled towards Bethnal Green' - sounds like that propelling was done along one of the Carriage Lines from Stratford towards Thornton Fields (latter end controlled by Bow Jn.box), then round Carpenters Road Curve to regain Channelsea Jn. and on towards Victoria Park : A variation on the routing mentioned in another post, involving propelling round the High Meads Curve.

As regards post-1967, I really don't know.
Once I was in KX PSB from 1979, I don't recall them running that way, or anywhere for turning, at all. Earlier than that (back to '74) I guess my work didn't entail dealing or knowing of the 'turning', yet surely the need to turn them had not ended that early?

[52A]

At Newcastle they were turned on the High Street/Greensfield triangle.

Were these the ECML trains or the Newcastle-Bristol?

Alas I cannot remember which one or maybe both. It was a Heaton diagram with a V3.