Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

neildimmer · Post by **neildimmer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:43 am

StevieG · Post by **StevieG** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:33 am

neildimmer wrote: " Hi All

I have added 10 photos of the Prototype Deltic on the East coast main line from the late 50's & early 60's, to presevation today ......"
" ....DELTIC on the East Coast main line in the early 60's (unknown locations)
http://www.deltics.photos.gb.net/p62512987.html "....

The background looks to fit Potters Bar (train just south of, on the Up Fast line): -
- station's two island platforms with buildings/canopies in the far background. The two colour-light signals would then be for the Down Slow (left) and Down Fast (right) : numbered PB16 and PB6 if memory serves, the latter (with 'square'-type junction indicator atop), I believe was the prototype for the static colour-light signal of the one-time range of model railway accessories manufactured by the then nearby firm of J & L Randall Ltd., under the brand name 'MERIT'.

neildimmer wrote: http://www.deltics.photos.gb.net/p62512989.html

Can't help with this one.

neildimmer wrote: http://www.deltics.photos.gb.net/p62512988.html

Definitely an up train again, this time between Welwyn North and South Tunnels : - Signal behind the leading coach is Welwyn North box's Up Main to Fast Distant (there's another, lower, beside this one, but completely hidden, for going Up Main to Slow at Digswell (south end of Welwyn Viaduct); Two-headed colour-light signal for the Down Main was Woolmer Green box's Down Main splitting Distants, for going to Down Fast, and to Down Slow.

Ferrybridge Flyer · Post by **Ferrybridge Flyer** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:05 pm

Thanks so much for sharing those super photos.Much appreciated.

Flamingo · Post by **Flamingo** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:30 am

I agree with StevieG's identification on the Potters Bar and Welwyn Tunnels photographs in the 1959-62 set. The middle one is much harder as there is almost nothing to go on. I can't think of any location like that south of Hitchin. If I had to make a guess it could be a down train north of Huntingdon. but I wouldn't put money on it.

Just wondering,and I know it's difficult to compare 50-year-old black & white photographs with much later colour shots, but it struck me that the blue seen in the pictures of Deltic at the NRM looks rather darker than that seen in the pictures of it at work on the ECML. I saw the prototype Deltic during its time on the ECML, in fact one of my 1959 notebooks lists a shot that I took of it near Greenwood - but that's all, just the notebook entry, I can find no trace of either the negative or a print made from it. Anyway, I remember it as a fairly light blue, you might even call it 'powder blue' and indeed I think somewhere I read it was described as such. The NRM blue is definitely not that shade.

Is it just my faulty memory, or was Deltic repainted at some stage?

manna · Post by **manna** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:31 pm

G'Day Gents

Have'nt seen Deltic for many years, but I also recall that Deltic was a very light blue,and when compared with a steam loco of the period,was a total contrast. Always seem to come through Wood Green around 4pm every day.
manna

giner · Post by **giner** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:07 pm

Flamingo wrote:I agree with StevieG's identification on the Potters Bar and Welwyn Tunnels photographs in the 1959-62 set. The middle one is much harder as there is almost nothing to go on. I can't think of any location like that south of Hitchin. If I had to make a guess it could be a down train north of Huntingdon. but I wouldn't put money on it.

Just wondering,and I know it's difficult to compare 50-year-old black & white photographs with much later colour shots, but it struck me that the blue seen in the pictures of Deltic at the NRM looks rather darker than that seen in the pictures of it at work on the ECML. I saw the prototype Deltic during its time on the ECML, in fact one of my 1959 notebooks lists a shot that I took of it near Greenwood - but that's all, just the notebook entry, I can find no trace of either the negative or a print made from it. Anyway, I remember it as a fairly light blue, you might even call it 'powder blue' and indeed I think somewhere I read it was described as such. The NRM blue is definitely not that shade.

Is it just my faulty memory, or was Deltic repainted at some stage?

Yep, definitely Potters Bar and twixt Welwyn Tunnels.

As for the middle picture, the coach configuration is the same as the Welwyn Tunnels shot so, given the slight curve, if it is the same train on the same day, I'm tempted to say the photographer either had a mate positioned towards the Woolmer Green end of the more northerly tunnel (although the top of the cutting looks to be without any trees, then again it could be that point just south of the Great North Road bridge where the four tracks become two), or this was some particular occasion when more than a few people taking pictures were out and about. That said, the coach make-up doesn't seem to indicate any particular occasion. More sleuths needed, please.

Flamingo · Post by **Flamingo** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:32 pm

[quote="giner Yep, definitely Potters Bar and twixt Welwyn Tunnels.

As for the middle picture, the coach configuration is the same as the Welwyn Tunnels shot so, given the slight curve, if it is the same train on the same day, I'm tempted to say the photographer either had a mate positioned towards the Woolmer Green end of the more northerly tunnel (although the top of the cutting looks to be without any trees, then again it could be that point just south of the Great North Road bridge where the four tracks become two), or this was some particular occasion when more than a few people taking pictures were out and about. That said, the coach make-up doesn't seem to indicate any particular occasion. More sleuths needed, please.[/quote]

Interesting theory and you could be right, the stock is certainly similar but I'm not convinced it's the same train on the same day. The 4th coaches look different to me though it is not easy to see coach 4 in the unidentified picture.

Just had another look and I noticed a difference in which of the Deltic's bodyside windows were open and which were closed. So unless the second man went back into the engine compartment (if so I hope he was wearing ear muffs!) and changed two of those windows after the first shot was taken then they were not taken on the same day. Very likely the same train on different days though.

Please forgive me for quoting a famous maxim from Sherlock Holmes, which seems appropriate:
Dr Watson : 'I can see nothing of importance'.
Holmes: 'On the contrary. You can see everything that is important. But you do not observe'.

StevieG · Post by **StevieG** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:14 pm

I'll have another go at 'sleuthing' then, though it'll probably prompt as many questions as possible answers.

Assuming that the 'middle' photo is a truly double-track location, I would have to discount Woolmer Green as, until resignalling times, the four tracks only became two just south of that cutting's south end, near the signal box, just into the beginning of embankment, a little north of the viaduct over Robbery Bottom Lane.

There is perhaps, just insufficient visible on the left to be sure there was no 3rd or 4th track out of sight, though the two small pieces of debris, in view of pretty good track tidiness (those were the days) in those times, I would venture, make it unlikely to be other than a double track site, - unless, there is another track(s) to the left, but with a 'wideway' in between, where the odd bit of waste material might be less unexpected or potentially troublesome.

Despite the large pole route (the size of which may, in itself, preclude minor routes), note the complete absence of mechanical signal wires, well, in their usual locations, anyway. So perhaps a place of all-electric signalling, or at least one where the distance between mechanical boxes was a minimum of around 3,000 yards (1.7 miles).

Thinking through 'the GN' from King's Cross (Hert.loop, and branches apart) at this period, if this is truly a double-track spot, I am unable to place this as anywhere south of Stoke 'box (the limit of familiarity with the route on which I would care to rely in this way).

Flamingo · Post by **Flamingo** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:53 am

Further evidence that the second (unknown) and third (Welwyn) pictures were not taken on the same day, or at least that the interval between them was not a short one, is provided by the drivers side windscreen wipers. They are only visible in one of the pictures.

Does Neil know who took these photographs? If we knew who the photographer was that might give us a clue as to possible favourite locations. Just a guess, could they be the work of Brian Morrison, who did have a track pass.

In an earlier post I mentioned having taken a photograph of Deltic near Greenwood in 1959. The picture itself being lost, the only record I have of it is the entry in my notebook. from that I can now add that the missing picture was taken on 28 February 1959, but perhaps more interesting is that the previous photograph I took on the same day was A4 60030 Golden Flece on the 266 Down Scotch Goods. Unfortunately that picture too is missing. But these 2 entries do give us a rough idea of the times they were taken. The Scotch Goods would have been through Greenwood shortly before 3.30 p.m. I think (on that date I have its departure time as 3.5 p.m.) and the train hauled by Deltic was my next photograph. It may well have been the up train seen in the known Welwyn and P.Bar photographs, so what do we know of trains due into KX between about 3.30 and 4.30 p.m. ? It could not have been any later than that because the light on a late February afternoon would not have been good enough for photography.

stembok · Post by **stembok** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:23 am

The normal daytime diagram for the prototype Deltic was the 08.20 K/X -Doncaster -Hull. Train No. 800, later 1N62, returning with the 12.30 pm express from Hull at around 13.33 from Doncaster, Train No.123, later 1E29. There was also an overnight round trip to Doncaster diagrammed. The Deltic did most of its running on these turns, occasionally working other trains.

giner · Post by **giner** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:52 pm

Hi Stembok,

In a previous post, I mentioned the train configuration for the first few coaches as being the same in the first two photos. Never having noticed this practice at the time, and certainly not remembering now, was this commonplace in train configuation at the time?

Oh that we'd scribble on the back of photos - we've all been guilty of not doing that, I guess. Still, we wouldn't have been having this scrutiising going on now if we had just done the simple thing at the time, eh?

neildimmer · Post by **neildimmer** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:53 pm

Flamingo wrote: Does Neil know who took these photographs? If we knew who the photographer was that might give us a clue as to possible favourite locations. Just a guess, could they be the work of Brian Morrison, who did have a track pass.

Sorry i got these in a job lot with a lot of LNER Steam loco photos

Neil

stembok · Post by **stembok** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:28 pm

giner: I wonder if the Gresley coach behind the engine and ahead of the brake in two of the shots has been slipped in to strengthen the normal train formation. The unidentified shot is a stab in the dark, but for some reason reminds me of the Gamston area near Retford.

The LNER Encyclopedia

Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962

Re: Prototype Deltic 1959 & 1962