Scotch Goods

[locojoe]

Hello All
Although I was in number 3 non lodge link at Kings Cross I did the occasional Newcastle lodge turn. Once I fired the 2.55 pm from Kings Cross goods yard. It was called The Scotch Goods. I have heard it called the Niddrie Scotch Goods, it was usually A4 hauled. It was run at just a bit below express speed and it was fully fitted (braked throughtout) it was about 50 years ago so forgive me if I get any details slightly wrong.

The train had only had one scheduled stop Dringhouses York. When we stopped at Dringhouses, York shed sent two men to pull our coal forward which by this time was well back in the tender. After we had finished our break we carried on to Newcastle. I'm not too sure but I think we arrived at Newcastle about 11pm. We lodged at Newcastle and worked an express back to Kings Cross the next day.
Locojoe.

[Flamingo]

In the 1950s before the train reporting system changed the Scotch (or Niddrie) Goods was Train no, 266 Down, the departure time varied over the years and at one stage it was 3.15 p.m. from KX Goods. A Kings Cross A4 was the usual motive power but I also saw and photographed A1s on it.

[chaz harrison]

There is a five page article on 266 down in the 1960 issue of Trains Illustrated Annual. This includes an account of a run with 60032 Gannet.
The same issue includes a section on the (then) recently closed M & GN.

Chaz

[paperman]

I've learned elsewhere that for years V2 was the motive power for this train. A4's only started to get used when the diesels took over the A4 tasks.

[stembok]

I've learned elsewhere that for years V2s were the motive power for this train. A4s only started to get used when diesels took over the A4 tasks.

A4s were regularly employed on the K/X -Niddrie 'scotch goods', long before the first five EE4s arrived at Hornsey in 1958. You may be thinking of a later class c departure at around 15.40 which did have a 34A V2 to York, until the final year or so of steam at King's Cross, when Pacifics began to make appearances. The 'scotch goods' 266 down - later 4S04 - which left at various times just before and after 15.00 over the years was a King's Cross 'top link' crew through to Newcastle, returning on an up passenger the following morning.

[Flamingo]

Yes, A4s (and A1s) were definitely used on the Scotch Goods before 1958. I have 1957 pictures of both classes on 266 Down.

The best fitted goods IMHO was 660 Down, the evening York Goods with a 50A V2 or very occasionally a B16. Of all the railway sounds from the steam era that train was my favourite. A wonderful noise it made coming past Greenwood on a long summer evening.

[61070]

I've just read a similar mention of the Scotch Goods in the last paragraph of this:

http://railways-of-britain.com/topshedstory.html

[paperman]

[quote="Flamingo"]Yes, A4s (and A1s) were definitely used on the Scotch Goods before 1958. I have 1957 pictures of both classes on 266 Down.

Where were the photos taken? The info I have is that a Topshed V2 took it to York, then a Gateshead A2 did York-Niddrie.

The trian is referred to as the 266-C Down Niddrie. Is this the fast service, or a later, slower one?

[Flamingo]

Yes, A4s (and A1s) were definitely used on the Scotch Goods before 1958. I have 1957 pictures of both classes on 266 Down.

Where were the photos taken? The info I have is that a Topshed V2 took it to York, then a Gateshead A2 did York-Niddrie.

The trian is referred to as the 266-C Down Niddrie. Is this the fast service, or a later, slower one?

266 Down was the mid-afternoon Scotch (or Niddrie) class C fast goods, departing at or around 3 p.m., though the time varied a bit over the years. I have shots of 60007 and 60139 near Greenwood ( just south of Hadley South tunnel ) and 60157 between Potters Bar and Brookmans Park, all taken in 1957. It was normal for Top Shed to use a Pacific rather than a V2 because in 1957 the engine on 266 Down worked through to Newcastle and its return working next day was more suited to a Pacific. I think it likely that the reference to V2s being used and engines being changed at York refers to a later year.

There was also an afternoon V2-hauled class C working shortly after 266 and others in the evening, notably 660 Down which was a 50A V2 that followed the down Aberdonian.

[stembok]

There were a number of fast goods trains from King's Cross to Scotland of which the famous Scotch Goods at C15.00 was only one, famous probably on account of its haulage by 'top link' 34A Pacifics and crews to Newcastle.
Yeadon's book on the V2s has two shots of 34A V2 60862 on the 15.40 (later 16.12) from King's Cross to Niddrie in 1962. By this date the C15.00 Scotch Goods mentioned previously was usually diesel hauled. The later 15.40 departure was also a King's Cross lodging turn, but to York, the loco and crew returning next day on Train 273, (later 4E01?), an Inverkeithing -King's Cross class c, leaving York at around 10.00 am from memory. There was also another K/X V2 lfreight lodging turn to York leaving around 02.30 from King's Cross and returning with one of the Aberdeen-King's Cross express fish trains from York, the same evening.

[paperman]

It would indeed seem that the arrangements changed over the years, I quote from my source on another list , who has kindly expanded on the details -

''266 became a KX Pacific turn through to Newcastle in September 1956. Prior
to that it had been worked by a KX V2 from London to York and a Gateshead A2
from York to Edinburgh. Since the train was limited to 50 wagons, the use
of a Pacific was rather pointless and the 1956 working was a balance for the
10.,00 Newcastle - Kings Cross Passenger. The earlier arrangement had been
rather wasteful since the A2 sat at York for almost 20 hours before taking
over its train.''

[stembok]

since the train was limited to 50 wagons the use of a Pacific was rather pointless

In his 1966 book on Bill Hoole, Peter Semmens mentions the Scotch Goods and what a hard working it was for the 34A men with up to 50 wagons and perhaps 750 tons behind the tender and a journey time of some eight hours. At Class C speeds and with the possibility of full loads it probably needed a Pacific for coal capacity reasons alone, as there were times that Newcastle was reached with a very bare tender if an A1 was provided. No wonder some of the K/X crews liked at pint or three in the Central Bar after relief. The V2s could struggle with their steaming at times on these hard and heavy long distance freights, due to indifferent coal quality and it was one of the reasons why King's Cross managed to get 60862/60902/03 fitted with double Kylchap exhausts late in the day for the York freight turns. When the Scotch Goods was accelerated in September 1956 it was part of a scheme to speed up freight traffic and make more productive use of engines and men, part of the rational for the through working to Newcasle.

[61070]

The V2s could struggle with their steaming at times on these hard and heavy long distance freights, due to indifferent coal quality and it was one of the reasons why King's Cross managed to get 60862/60902/03 fitted with double Kylchap exhausts late in the day for the York freight turns.

Here's a well turned out 60862 northbound at Grantham, no doubt on one of these very workings. The date is thought to be Thursday 21st June 1962, but it could have been a week later on 28th.

[stembok]

61070: I'l stick my neck out and say that this is likely to be the C15.40 ex K/X Class C. King's Cross engine and men on a lodging turn to York, returning next day on 4E01? Inverkeithing -King's Cross Class C. what a pity more V2s were not given the double Kylchap exhaust, though it detracted from their looks and they would almost certainly have needed smoke deflector plates in time.

[brsince78]

Stembok's mention of Driver Hoole prompted me to dig out Gerry Fiennes book "I tried to run a railway". He gives a graphic description of Bill Hoole taking 20 minutes to cover the 27 miles between Hitchin and Huntingdon, 75 mph average with the 266 Down, before he was stopped with a hot box on one of the wagons!