Indian Red

[Bryan]

Indian Red is the livery I am intending for my NER Snowplough when its restoration is complete.
However I was reading an article the other day about the IOM railway and Mannin and the livery Indian Red was mentioned.
My question is, Is the IOM version of Indian Red the same as the NER version?

[richard]

I've been wondering about Indian red - but for my brakevan.

I have a tin of Phoenix "NER Brake Van Oxide" which is going to be one of the reddish-brown colours used on the brake vans - but which one?


Richard

[Bryan]

I think its a case of

"Good question.
Well presented.
Deserves an answer."

[Bryan]

Re the question about Brake van livery.
Quoting from the book "North Eastern Railway Brake Vans"
A Railway Bylines special by Ian Sadler published by Irwell press in 2003
ISBN 1-903266-33-5

"NER goods brakes are Brown with yellow lettering and red ends"
Brown being "Indian Red"
Notes found in a paint shop foremans notebook, for vehicles passing through the paint hop between June 1866 + Jan 1867 state
NEW VANS
Inside: 3 coats Stone colour.
Ends: 2 coats white and 2 coats red
Sides:2 coats Lead colour and 2 coats Indian Red. Blacked up then varnished 1 coat. (WHAT DOES BLACKED UP MEAN? BB)
Roofs: 2 coats Lead colour and puttied before covers put on. 2 coats filling up. 2 coats white.

OLD VANS
2 coats paint inside and out.
1 coat Varnish outside

A further comment states that Modern day Indian reds tend to be more red and much darker than what was usedby the NER. More modern Red Oxide is probably closer to the NER mix of Indian Red.

Hope this helps.

[richard]

Thanks Bryan. I'll see if I can find the Railway Bylines.

I've also found "Indian Red" being referred to as Chestnut - but that is a modern colour chart. The name coming from iron-rich soils found in parts of India.


Richard

[Cock o' The North]

It's a funny old thing is colour. Firstly I always think it is worth a look in the BS381c colour charts as many colours ended up in a standard list of one sort or another. In this instance there is a Dark Indian Red, BS381c 448. One source of the chart is with Stephen Hull, here.http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk/bs381c.html This may or may not be of any use. There is also a similar list of shades in the RAL charts, and Chestnut, RAL8015 comes to mind, although being a German system, RAL is unlikely to be useful other than an interesting comparison.

There is an entry re Indian Red on Wikipedia which might of curiosity value if nothing more, here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_%28color%29

I say it's a funny old thing because while I have seen modellers getting very hung up about exact shades of colours, and spending ages trying to match a colour to some sample or other, and indeed it is nice to get it right; I don't dispute that; but in real life there are so many variables such that shades can change quite remarkably, and really, there is no one correct shade for many of these earlier colours. Therefore in my instance, who knows whether the sample is right in the first place even if it is an original sample?

The very quotation that the top coats are put on over other base colours, (ends over white and sides over lead), suggests that the ends and sides will look slightly different in colour as top coats are greatly influenced by the colour over which they are applied.

The actual rendition of the colour will depend on all sorts of things, such as accuracy of the original mix of the colour, initial pigment grade, which is likely to have been less controlled in the old days than it is now, actual pigment types, how old the paint is, and how affected by the sun it has been, etc. Many colours fade rapidly. It will also look different in different types of daylight, and most importantly, the distance from which it is viewed. The farther away the observer, the lighter and bluer the colour will appear. Therefore if you are modelling a vehicle which is normally viewed at a distance of say three feet, this represents about 230 feet in 4mm scale, so the colour should in theory be rendered differently for this scale distance, rather than the actual three feet distance. This may be pedantic however, but nevertheless it makes a difference!

All this can be very confusing, and in the end everything is a compromise of all the above, so as in everything, if it looks and feels right, then it probably is.

[Bill Bedford]

The very quotation that the top coats are put on over other base colours, (ends over white and sides over lead), suggests that the ends and sides will look slightly different in colour as top coats are greatly influenced by the colour over which they are applied.

They were meant to look different. The ends of all brake vans were painted vermilion, ie buffer beam red, at this time. This changed from the late 1880s with the introduction of continuous brakes and, I believe, changes to the lamps a brake van carried

[Bryan]

They were meant to look different. The ends of all brake vans were painted vermilion, ie buffer beam red, at this time. This changed from the late 1880s with the introduction of continuous brakes and, I believe, changes to the lamps a brake van carried

Does this mean that vehicles that originally carried Red at the rear end had this removed / painted over?
I ask because the NRM is insistant that the rear end of their snowlough number 12 has a Red rear end, however I have found nothing to confirm this. Also stripping away paint on the rear end of my plough number 18 has found no sign of red at all.
The NRMs 12 was built mid 1880s and mine is from 1909 would this explain why no red?

[mick b]

Ken Hooles Diagram of Snowploughs states NER livery was all over bright red weathering to red brown
NERA Record Vol 2 has a black & white photo whatever the colour is?? both ploughs appear to be in the same overall shade of colour on the sides and ends
Mick

[Bryan]

both ploughs appear to be in the same overall shade of colour on the sides and ends

Its a similar situation on a number of different photos of pairs of ploughs.
I have copies of photos at Waskerley and various other locations were I cannot detect any difference between shading on the ends.

[Bill Bedford]

Does this mean that vehicles that originally carried Red at the rear end had this removed / painted over?

Yes

I ask because the NRM is insistant that the rear end of their snowlough number 12 has a Red rear end, however I have found nothing to confirm this. Also stripping away paint on the rear end of my plough number 18 has found no sign of red at all.
The NRMs 12 was built mid 1880s and mine is from 1909 would this explain why no red?

That sounds about right. In 1880 almost all brake vans had red ends, by 1900 the companies that persisted with this practice are pretty well documented, but unless you can find a dated painting spec it is almost impossible to be certain about what happened between the two dates.

The SR continued to use red ends on its brake vans up to 1948