coach line up

[Kings Cross]

Hello,

Could anyone answer this Dutch LNER enthousiast these two questions:

Did LNER passenger trains have a brake coach on both sides of the train or only at the end?
Did the LNER have any standards about coach line up (1st class, 3rd class, sleeper, buffet, restaurant, etc) or was it just at random?

[Bill Bedford]

Hello,

Could anyone answer this Dutch LNER enthousiast these two questions:

Did LNER passenger trains have a brake coach on both sides of the train or only at the end?

Usually sets were made up with a brake at each end, through strengthening coach could be added at either oe both ends.

Did the LNER have any standards about coach line up (1st class, 3rd class, sleeper, buffet, restaurant, etc) or was it just at random?

It was never random. Each service had it's own arrangement.

[hq1hitchin]

Hello,

Could anyone answer this Dutch LNER enthousiast these two questions:

Did LNER passenger trains have a brake coach on both sides of the train or only at the end?

Usually sets were made up with a brake at each end, through strengthening coach could be added at either oe both ends.

Did the LNER have any standards about coach line up (1st class, 3rd class, sleeper, buffet, restaurant, etc) or was it just at random?

It was never random. Each service had it's own arrangement.

The formation of booked trains would be shown in the relevant carriage working books and would often show in some detail what types of coach and diagram number were to be included in the set, which end the brake portions of 'carriage brakes' (e.g brake third, brake composite) were to be marshalled and tonnages etc. Having the brake portions marshalled at the extremities was seen as a safety measure in the event of a collision. Not quite so much detail for suburban workings but certainly in BR days, main line coaches were individually controlled (unlike wagons and parcel vans) and the divisions liaised closely with the central coaching stock office in York HQ, I believe similar arrangements would have applied in LNER days. As regards adding additional vehicles to booked sets to cater for overcrowding etc, this had to be arranged beforehand or agreed between the Control Offices if done at short notice because were a train to arrive at a terminus with a couple of strengtheners on without prior knowledge, all sorts of problems could arise, not least the fact that the tail end of the train might completely block the station, causing great irritation to operating staff and delay to other services.

[Bill Bedford]

As regards adding additional vehicles to booked sets to cater for overcrowding etc, this had to be arranged beforehand or agreed between the Control Offices

I was not especially thinking about extra coaches put on for unexpected overcrowding. In the 1936 GC diagram book the stock for the Leicester - Grimsby service is given as a 3 cars set, BT, Cl, BT. On Saturday mornings this set worked from Leicester to Rugby and back with and an additional third. There were a number of other similar Saturday only workings in the book.

If pre-war photos of trains are compared with known carriage workings then it is obvious that the normal sets have been strengthened. No doubt this was done by special notices to cope with the extra traffic on summer Saturdays. However the prevalence of photos of strengthened trains gives the impression to casual observers that they are seeing normal weekday services and that train make up was a lot more random than it was in reality.

[Solario]

Did LNER passenger trains have a brake coach on both sides of the train or only at the end?

I imagine, if the train were to be split (or joined), such as at Doncaster, where a Hull portion may have been detached, then the portion of a split train that continued up the main line may have had only one brake and at which end? Or were there multiple brakes?

I seem to recollect that the Hull portion of the Yorkshire Pullman, in BR days, had a brake at the northern end of the train, so I guess that this portion would be at the northern end of the train at Kings X.

In the 50s & 60s it was quite common for mainline trains to be split or joined at Doncaster; apart from the Pullman, I do not know the destinations of the portion that continued up the mainline. I suppose if they were for just Leeds or York then they did not have far to travel with a single brake.

[hq1hitchin]

Did LNER passenger trains have a brake coach on both sides of the train or only at the end?

I imagine, if the train were to be split (or joined), such as at Doncaster, where a Hull portion may have been detached, then the portion of a split train that continued up the main line may have had only one brake and at which end? Or were there multiple brakes?

I seem to recollect that the Hull portion of the Yorkshire Pullman, in BR days, had a brake at the northern end of the train, so I guess that this portion would be at the northern end of the train at Kings X.

In the 50s & 60s it was quite common for mainline trains to be split or joined at Doncaster; apart from the Pullman, I do not know the destinations of the portion that continued up the mainline. I suppose if they were for just Leeds or York then they did not have far to travel with a single brake.

Yes, I would imagine pragmatism took a hand here. Certainly in BR vacuum braked days, for example, the Bradford portions of West Riding services often just consisted of a BSO, a TSO and a CK so beyond Leeds City in one direction or another, the carriage brake would be marshalled behind the engine. Old habits die hard, however, and I well remember a station foreman at Welwyn GC expressing concern when the KX inner suburban sets were all re-marshalled in the 1960s with only 1 BS in the formation and that right in the middle of a five coach set. He reckoned it made it more difficult to see when propelling. Remember those glorious days when we did things like that - long before the flyover was built there?

[Kings Cross]

Cheers for the info thusfar... Any extra info is most welcome.

Does anyone know about any literature or other research material about the subject? I would love to know more about coach arrangements for the different LNER services.

[silver fox]

Found this http://isinglass.edgson.net/html/coach_sets.html if you go here you can move through a whole train coach by coach.

[richard]

Isinglass Drawings have quite a reputation - many in the modelling world are very thankful that the Edgson family have chosen to keep the late John Edgson's drawings available. Locally (yes in Dallas, Texas!) I know someone who is scratch-building an O gauge B12/1 from one of the Isinglass drawings.


Richard

[scottiedog]

Two publications from the North Eastern Railway Association might be of help to you. These are LNER East Coast Carriage Workings from 18th July 1932, until further notice, and LNER (North East Area) Carriage Roster from 1st May 1932, until further notice. The latter covers Inter Area, Other Area & Foreign sets.

[hq1hitchin]

Two publications from the North Eastern Railway Association might be of help to you. These are LNER East Coast Carriage Workings from 18th July 1932, until further notice, and LNER (North East Area) Carriage Roster from 1st May 1932, until further notice. The latter covers Inter Area, Other Area & Foreign sets.

As a result of this reply I ordered and recieved the East Coast Carriage Workings for the summers of both 1932 and 1950 from NERA - thanks very much indeed, scottiedog. Many hours reading in both tomes - how many people realise, for instance, that there were milk vans that passed between Stranraer and Ware (via Clarence Yard and Hatfield) on a daily basis?. Before we get carried away with nostalgia, however, and realising that might be sooo boring to one or two of our readers, let's consider how thin the Anglo-Scottish services were in those (allegedly) golden days - the last day service in 1932 for Edinburgh left the Cross at 13.20 hrs. Imagine that today? As an aside, interesting to note that nowadays one of the GBRF postal turns for drivers involves them travelling (passenger, of course) on an Easyjet flight from Lootin to Glasgow then working the train back from Glasgow to Willesden. Let's keep mail on the rails...

[robertcwp]

The North Eastern Railway Association also do a copy of the Summer 1950 ECML workings, which are a fascinating read.

[robertcwp]

For those interested in the BR Steam era on the ECML, the Summer 1958 East Coast Main Line Carriage Workings are currently available for download in pdf form in my Yahoo Group BRCoachingStock.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRcoachingstock/

[robertcwp]

Here is an example page from a carriage working book - in this case East Coast Main Line Summer 1958:



Asterisk indicates BR Standard stock, which is the entire train in this case except the RU. (8) etc indicate number of compartments. Paragraph mark indicates to be fitted with guard's compartment. Italics are dining seats not counted in overall totals.

The Flying Scotsman was one of the first services to have one of the then-new miniature buffet cars (RMB).

[kimballthurlow]

Thanks Robertcrp, interesting page.
regards
Kimball