LNER Carriage Liveries the future?

[65447]

It's a case of what knowledge is available at the time, like all these things. These days we're thoroughly spoilt by the Internet, although there's as much duff information on that as anywhere else. At least it's readily to hand and you can filter through what you think is reliable and what is not.

To my knowledge the authoritative work on LNER liveries of all sorts is still the Brian Haresnape book from about 1980.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Liveri ... 0711013462

Haresnape is informative, but his principal failing is that for colour comparison and specification purposes, he relies on back-referencing Ernest F Carter's book Britain's Railway Liveries, Harold Starke Ltd 1952 and 2nd ed 1963, and its included colour chart, which uses Carter's unique reference numbering. Few people will have a copy of that while the colour chips will have the potential to change over time and are high gloss, and Carter does not include all of the colours anyway.

Certain drawings of carriage livery details are copied from Nick Campling's/David Jenkinson's original Historic Carriage Drawings, also published by Ian Allan. The MRC published a couple of articles detailing LNER locomotive liveries, the first by Nick Campling (LNER Society) in October 1967 and the second by Robert E Hillard (HMRS) in May and June 1979.

The LNER Society's original intention was to produce a livery register but the work relied on the contributions of individuals; the available source material was distributed but to my understanding never re-collated.

As of today, Mike Trice has probably done the most research on coaching stock, Peter Tatlow has provided livery information in his Wagons series; and I am still assimilating information regarding the painting of buildings and structures. Chris Stapleton at Precision Paints has also undertaken or has access to sufficient research to reproduce the model paints.

The problem remains of relating described colours to actual published specifications such as British Standards, and then understanding the methods of their application. One fact I do know is that most paint was prepared at The Plant, under the direction of the Chief Chemist, and distributed to the point of use, which suggest greater consistency of colour if not in the local methods of application.

[NZRedBaron]

So, a question; assuming that "Rule One for Model Railways" applies here, what are the different coach liveries the LNER used, leaving aside varnished teak?

[Trestrol]

Green and cream Tourist livery
Blue and off white EMU livery
Red and cream early EMU livery

[Hatfield Shed]

And also, as mentioned up thread, 'teak paint': applied to older stock which had either been varnished timber but was now 'too tired' to be revarnished; or had been painted the stock colour scheme under previous ownership.
Then there's the silver grey (Jubilee train set) and the Coronation/West Riding blue and cream (four train sets)
And finally on steel skinned stock, scumbled teak paintwork to imitiate varnished teak panelling.

[Woodcock29]

The Coronation and West Riding sets were Garter blue and Marlborough blue not blue and cream.

[Hatfield Shed]

The Coronation and West Riding sets were Garter blue and Marlborough blue not blue and cream.

I knew that would get a reaction. Never saw it in reality, but in every photograph I have seen the pale blue looks cream to me, probably to do with the gamut of the contemporary photographic emulsions.

[65447]

On point three I also disagree, they already had Blue and Cream as stated in my post. This was first used in 1938/39 on the six Shenfield EMUs delivered before the the war.

re: the LNER Shenfield units being painted in LNER blue / grey livery, some years ago I read something about some minor damage to one of the first coaches to be built which necessitated a visit to the paintshop, and when the paintwork in the affected area was being rubbed down prior to painting it was found that the BR green had indeed been painted over the LNER blue livery. What a shame that no photographic evidence exists that shows this.

It's necessary to challenge assertions such as these least they get repeated and treated as fact, as has arisen recently elsewhere.

On the first point no units were built before the war, the first was delivered in February 1949 and the remainder at a rate of 9 cars (i.e. 3 complete units) per week. The internal layout had been changed as a consequence of the decision to withdraw first class from the London area in 1941. Two builders were involved, Met-Camm and BRCW, with electrical equipment from elsewhere. The OHLE only went live on 23 March 1949 between Ilford and Chadwell Heath for test running and official opening was not until 26 September 1949.

Had any been constructed pre-war then they could only have been put into storage but where? They could not be employed on any other electrified routes for Tyneside was third rail, the shared Metropolitan-GC lines four rail, Immingham was a tramcar route, and as the units were built to the maximum loading gauge their route availability was restricted. Had they been built then records would exist and so would that regarding their return to the builders for conversion of the former first class accommodation, the delivery schedule would have been different and there would more than likely have been problems resulting from the electrical equipment not having been used for the best part of 10 years. The three Diagrams were not added to the books until 1950, after numbered entries for post-war coaching stock and conversions.

The nascent British Transport Commission and Railway Executive formally agreed the new British Railways liveries late in 1948 or early in 1949, the details were published in the February 1949 Railway Observer.

Contemporary photographs all show (albeit in monochrome) the plain green livery with no accompanying mention of blue/cream. A copy of the Met-Camm 1949 promotional advertisement also shows them in green. The Driving Trailers were built by BRCW and it's possible that one contractor didn't get or act on the memo quickly enough and had to repaint the very first units before delivery but that’s speculation. Without a named source and in the absence of positive proof, the discovery at Ilford can only be taken as an urban myth. What colour primer/undercoat might have been used?

[Trestrol]

The units were ordered in 1938 to provide stock for both Sheffield and Glossop. Yes there were design differences but they were essentially the same. It is perfectly feasible that rolling bodyshells were delivered pre-war or even during the phoney war. Even I believe as stated in the Locomotives section of this website it was only a couple of bodies. We are not talking complete units here. As the power equipment was supplied from a separate supplier to be fitted at a third location i.e York works. As the Second world War was over the units would have been completed and repainted.It is known that where wagons were concerned it was not unknown for Shildon to build the underframe and an external contractor to build the body. As they were incapable of travelling under their own power they would not use them elsewhere. There were plenty of obscure locations to store stuff during the war. South Gosforth was already full of Electric locomotives so no point taking them there. Like the carriages stored at Battersby Junction North Yorkshire. Maybe Richard can throw some light into the units in the information section of this website.

[65447]

Not sure if Ernst Birchler is still around but Charles Phillips most certainly is, and both are/were members of the GERS. That will now be followed up.

There were mock-ups that were put together at Stratford early in 1939 to try out various examples of lettering/numbering, that are reported as being in a two-tone finish, the lower darker and the upper lighter. Since the contemporary photographs are in monochrome the actual colours cannot be definitively stated. They are in the Stratford Works Photographs collection held at the NRM.

[Trestrol]

We need to remember building trains then is not like now. Timelines were much shorter and the technology although advanced for the time was simpler. Hence build times were shorter. Plans were I assume drawn at Doncaster so provided to the Mett-Camm and BRCW rather than now where the contractor draws to the company’s spec.

[65447]

The Railway Observer for December 1946 contains this report, on p192:

'G.E. ELECTRIFICATION.—Current was turned on between Liverpool St. and Drapers' Field, Leyton, on the Central Line on 18th November. Official opening of the Central Line service to Stratford is to be carried out by the Minister of Transport on 3rd December, and the public service begins on 4th
December.

'Meanwhile, progress with the L.N.E.R. Liverpool St.-Shenfield electrification proceeds, and on 20th August there was seen at Marylebone Station a full sized model in plywood of the type of coach to be used on this service. It resembles the more modern type of Metropolitan coach that is at present employed on the Inner Circle Service, except that it has no connecting doors, this end of the coach being taken up completely by a seat for six persons. The windows are slightly larger with rounded corners, and the doors, like the tube, will be of the air operated type.

'The chassis appeared to have come from a disused coach—probably a blitz victim that had been repainted. Doubtless the blue and cream livery as used on the Newcastle electric services will be adopted.'

Why would a full-size model be constructed (for the purposes of the Directors' approval) if any one or all of the already constructed six sets could have been displayed?

[Trestrol]

Mock up possibility, but if there were any completed bodies they may not have been fitted out until the traction and electrical equipment then the interior would not be complete. So a complete mock up is better to show the public than an empty bodyshell. The two electrification projects were authorised before the war, EM1 Tommy is proof of that. These units were probably a follow on order at Met-Cam after the LMS Merseyside units(introduced 1939 although probably authorised 1937?) Electrification infrastructure works had already started so it would have been sensible to order rolling stock for introduction 12-18 months after ordering. The LNER Tyneside electric were ordered in 1935 from Met-Cam and introduced to traffic in 1937. So by that principle services on the GE section should have started in 1940. So it's quite plausible for incomplete units to be ready when war was declared and production switched to war work.