Identifying commuter rolling stock

[65447]

Might be worth a look through Peter Tatlow's books on breakdown cranes if anyone has them to hand...

Did that yesterday, to no avail... the weighty tomes are not structured nor are they indexed for that sort of searching.

[jwealleans]

nor are they indexed

No, indeed. A curious but irritating omission.

[Mickey]

I thought I'd stick my two pennies worth in not that I know much about C&W vehicles but could it be a ex-GWR passenger brake that happened to find it's way to Hornsey and ended up in the Hornsey breakdown vans?.

[Trestrol]

Doubt it. Wasn't GWR loading gauge generous so may not have fitted elsewhere. It is an older vehicle so won't have been built to a more complyant gauge. Looks NER to me.

[60048]

Did that yesterday, to no avail... the weighty tomes are not structured nor are they indexed for that sort of searching.

Thank you for taking the time to look. Really appreciated.

Doubt it. Wasn't GWR loading gauge generous so may not have fitted elsewhere. It is an older vehicle so won't have been built to a more complyant gauge. Looks NER to me.

I must admit, NER was my first thought, but nothing id have put any money on. I think an older NER bogie (or six-wheeled) brake is probably the closest we are going to get - unless anyone has a Time Machine and can pop back ... in which case can I come along and bring a digital camera??

Thanks for all your help chaps, much appreciated.

[Mickey]

I wonder if Brian had first visited Oakleigh Park s/box (obscured by smoke between the Down fast and Down slow line off the south end of Oakleigh Park station) and had got the 'heads up' from the signalman of the one on the Up fast line so he left the box and positioned himself with his back to the Down slow line to get the shot?. I presume the J50 was a accidental accident appearing in the photograph or maybe it was the other way around and the one on the Up fast line wasn't meant to be the real subject of the photograph?.

[billbedford]

Here's one diagram with the same brake end arrangement as the one in the photo. That is van, double door, ducket and then compartments. Other diagrams are possible, but my NER diagrams are scattered, and I can't be bothered to find them all.

[60048]

I wonder if Brian had first visited Oakleigh Park s/box (obscured by smoke between the Down fast and Down slow line off the south end of Oakleigh Park station) and had got the 'heads up' from the signalman of the one on the Up fast line so he left the box and positioned himself with his back to the Down slow line to get the shot?. I presume the J50 was a accidental accident appearing in the photograph or maybe it was the other way around and the one on the Up fast line wasn't meant to be the real subject of the photograph?.

From the records it looks like Brian had just gone for a period at Oakleigh Park on 28th February 1953. This was the second shot of the day, the first being B1 61265 on an Up Freight. Subsequent shots were:

• J50 68968 on an Up Freight

• WD 90559 on a Down Freight

• B17 61623 on a Down Semi-Fast

• J50 69831 on an Up Special

• A3 60056 Centenary on an Up Newcastle Express

• A1 60138 Boswell on an Up Expresss for York and Hull

• V2 60821 on an Up Freight

• A4 60014 Silver Link on the Down 'Heart of Midlothian'

• A1 60135 Foxhunter on the Up 'Yorkshire Pullman'

• J50 68891 shunting

What I have just noticed is 69831 is listed on an Up Special. Now is that the right number, or have the 2nd and 3rd digits got swapped and it's pure coincidence? I'll dig the negative out later and check it.

[60048]

Here's one diagram with the same brake end arrangement as the one in the photo. That is van, double door, ducket and then compartments. Other diagrams are possible, but my NER diagrams are scattered, and I can't be bothered to find them all.

NER D56 45' BC-800px.png

Yes, I'd agree Bill, that certainly looks an option.

[60048]

I wonder if Brian had first visited Oakleigh Park s/box (obscured by smoke between the Down fast and Down slow line off the south end of Oakleigh Park station) and had got the 'heads up' from the signalman of the one on the Up fast line so he left the box and positioned himself with his back to the Down slow line to get the shot?. I presume the J50 was a accidental accident appearing in the photograph or maybe it was the other way around and the one on the Up fast line wasn't meant to be the real subject of the photograph?.

From the records it looks like Brian had just gone for a period at Oakleigh Park on 28th February 1953. This was the second shot of the day, the first being B1 61265 on an Up Freight. Subsequent shots were:
...

• J50 69831 on an Up Special

....

What I have just noticed is 69831 is listed on an Up Special. Now is that the right number, or have the 2nd and 3rd digits got swapped and it's pure coincidence? I'll dig the negative out later and check it.

Ok, now I am confused! It was niggling at me, so I have been and had a look through the existing digital scans - which are ok but really need rescanning from the original negs, as these images were done from prints rather than negatives. Yes the number is wrong in the records and it is indeed 68931 again, the same J50 as noted on the breakdown train earlier.

The one piece of information Brian did not note in this record was a passing time, so we have no idea at all how long he was at Oakleigh Park - those more knowledgable may be able to triangulate the info from the passing of the named expresses - but the original shot that started this thread was the second shot of the day. The sixth shot of the day was 68931 again heading in the Up direction, this time with a pair of Quad Art coaches.



Now looking at the smoke from the chimney top in the first picture and the position of the crew, I am suspecting that the J50 could actually be stood when the A1 was passing by. But why the same loco subsequently appeared on Quad-Arts is a mystery. Brian has it captioned as an 'Up Special' - so could there have been a derailment, and the breakdown train was being shunted, before the J50 moved the Quad-Arts south? We may never know I suppose, but the 3rd shot of the day, showing 68968 on a freight, shows it was on the same line as the breakdown train, I am guessing the Up Slow - which suggests the line was not blocked.

[JASd17]

The carriage in the original photo is certainly of North Eastern Railway origin.

He said rather belatedly.

Edit: Actually I think it might be a later build Diagram 18 BT(3), with inset ducket, but altered beyond that for departmental service use.

John

[Mickey]

From the shadows casts off the A1 and it's train travelling along the Up fast line and the second photograph of the J50 travelling along the Up slow line I would hazard a guess that the sun was possibly nearly or directly overhead so maybe the time may have been very late morning 11:30 am to midday or midday to 12:30 pm?.

A nice little box and job was Oakleigh Park which survived until about the autumn of 1970 when it and the next box along New Barnet South Box were both closed at the same time and colour light signalling was introduced worked from New Barnet North Box.

[60048]

Thanks Mickey,
Yes I suspect you may well be right there. Were there any sidings around Oakleigh Park, that the breakdown train could have been shunted into?

[Hatfield Shed]

...But why the same loco subsequently appeared on Quad-Arts is a mystery. Brian has it captioned as an 'Up Special' ...

The J50 was 'the maid of all work' is the simplest explanation: on ECS which is being moved for a reason we don't now know.

[60048]

...But why the same loco subsequently appeared on Quad-Arts is a mystery. Brian has it captioned as an 'Up Special' ...

The J50 was 'the maid of all work' is the simplest explanation: on ECS which is being moved for a reason we don't now know.

Oh yes, I accept that, and normally I wouldn't have given that any more thought. But in this case, I am guessing there couldn't have been more than an hour between the J50 being stood on the Up Slow with a breakdown train, and then the same locomotive working on the Up Slow with the Quad Arts. Ok, we dont know the actual timings, but looking at the number of images Mr Morrison took at Oakleigh Park that day, I doubt it was any longer, if indeed that long. We dont know what happened the Breakdown Train of course, but the mystery in my mind is what was going on to cause the loco to be used on two different trains in a short space of time. Albeit we may never establish the background, some 70 odd years later!