Whitley Bay summers

[(Percy Main)]

Does anyone know the routes taken by the Glasgow summer services into Whitley Bay? Avenue branch? When did these services start?

[WTTReprinter]

I just had a look at my Summer '53 WTT;
the 11.50 Glasgow-Whitley Bay (Saturdays only) ran up the ECML to Newcastle [3.41-3.48], then headed out to call at Tynemouth (4.6-4.8 pm) via Percy Main and arriving Whitley Bay 4.13 pm. The set then went ECS to Little Benton.
It appears the return to Glasgow started from Tynemouth at 11.25 am, then Whitley Bay dep 11.32 and headed out via the single line to Hartley and called Bedlington (11.54-11.56), then on to join the ECML at Morpeth arr. 12.16, dep. 12.24 (change loco & reverse)

[Danby Wiske]

...then on to join the ECML at Morpeth arr. 12.16, dep. 12.24 (change loco & reverse)

That's interesting. Was there a loco change at Newcastle in the opposite direction, or did the Glasgow engine work through to Whitley Bay?

[WTTReprinter]

The WTT doesn't show a loco change at Newcastle but I imagine there would be whilst the train reversed. This probably isn't shown because Newcastle was a booked stop whereas Morpeth would be a stop just to change loco/reverse.

[Danby Wiske]

Many thanks.

[(Percy Main)]

Just to clarify. These trains seem to be remembered as Whitley Bay specials. Did they actually pick up passengers at Tynemouth or is the WTT showing them waiting in the centre road to follow an electric train to Whitley Bay?

[billdonald]

I've only just noticed this post and can maybe add a little more information, albeit based on conjecture. It does demonstrate that even the WTT can not give the full picture of traffic operations and carriage workings. I do have WTTs for the location and period concerned. What are needed are the Engine Workings and Special Notices concerning this service. I have a potential ace up my sleeve in the shape of a copy of the 1957 Passenger Guards Workings Workings for the Newcastle District which makes no mention of this service. This would suggest it was an all-Scottish working with conductors supplied by Heaton for the North Tyneside and Blyth & tyne elements.

The three possible MPds which could have provided the train crew were Glasgow Eastfield, Edinburgh Haymarket or St.Margarets, The carriage set was probably from the ScR ECML pool so could have been BR Mark I or Thompson or Gresley corridor stock. I would have worked back to the ScR during the week either as an ECS job or service job. The ScR locomotive after arrival at Newcastle would have been removed and sent to Heaton, Gateshead or Blaydon for servicing before being returned north with a freight or passenger job later that day. It is unlikely a Pacific would be used, rather a B1, V2 or even a Stanier or BR Class 5. To complete the final leg of the journey to the resorts, a Heaton V3 would take the east facing end and haul the train via Wallsend calling at Tynemouth and Whitley Bay before going ECS to Heaton via the Benton SE Curve. The coacjes would be cleaned and serviced at Heaton and the V3 would have resumed its empty stock workings to and from Newcastle with stock from Scotswood Bridge Sidings or Heaton Carriage Sidings.

The return to Scotland working would have needed the Scottish engine at one end and a V3 at the other. I would think it unlikely that the train engine went light to join the train at Tynemouth since the proximity of conductor rails to men unaccustomed to them would have precluded any coupling up operations in the Tyneside Electrified Area. I would suggest that the empty train left Heaton Carriage Sidings with the Scottish engine leading and heading north via the ECML and then on to the Benton SE Curve to gain Tynemouth via Monkseaton. After loading at Tynemouth, the V3 took over the leading end and picked up at Whitley Bay and Bedlington. On arrival at Morpeth, the V3 came off since it was now facing south and probably ran back LE to Tyneside via the ECML. The Scots crew had probably been preparing a good fire on their engine and would have made a good getaway north from Morpeth.

Although the above outline is based on my own educated guesswork, I would suggest a visit to the Scottish Records Office and a lengthy perusal of the railway records they have there. The hardest part of any railway historical research is not so much knowing what you are looking for, it is where to find such information. Lateral thinking can lead you straight to it but in my experience, this sort of work is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. A jigsaw is the perfect analogy and you can spend decades waiting for that last piece to drop into place.

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland

[(Percy Main)]

This is so interesting and shows expertise far greater than I have.

Thinking about the return journey, the Scottish engine would be tender first at the back of the train from Tynemouth to Morpeth. Might the Scottish engine not have run LE to Morpeth via the ECML and reversed onto and taken over the train when it arrived V3 hauled off the Blyth and Tyne? It strikes me this would be more 'elegant' than top and tail working.

The V3 would have taken the empty stock from Heaton via Wallsend to Tynemouth and Whitley Bay and then along the Avenue branch. This would have avoided reversal and crossing to the down platform at Tynemouth. The train would have 20 minutes or so to load if it closely followed an electric train into Tynemouth.

[billdonald]

In the abscence of the relevant documents it is not possible to give a definitive answer but I would believe that the locomotive at each end working was probably the most likely for two reasons:

1. Two locomotives gave the option of approaching the coast stations from either the Backworth or Wallsend directions without the need for any runaround of a single locomotive arrangement. Clearly some thought had to be given to the position of the V3 assistance. Whichever route was taken, there would be a Heaton or Gateshead driver for the journey to Morpeth. Thereafter the Scottish driver would have signed for the ECML northbound.
2. If for some reason it was necessary to berth or load the northbound working at Tynemouth and use the bay platforms there, two locomotives would have been more convenient since none of the bays at Tynemouth had release crossovers since the station was meant to be used largely for EMU operation.

In most of these things where there is little or no information available, you have to fall back on intelligent guesswork until definitive evidence emerges from somewhere. As many readers will know, I have been on the Tyneside Electric projet for 60 odd years and I'm still uncovering information. The latest one being that the single unit LMD/3s were used as reinforcement units in the 1950s. No photographic evidence has shown up but these workings are documented in special Car Set Working amendments,

Bill Donald
Dublin, Ireland.

[WTTReprinter]

I just had a look at Robert Carroll's collection of Carriage workings and he has a Nth Eastern Summer '56 that shows these carriage turns.
They were formed of ScR Stock (BSK, 2 CK 6 SK & BSK:- 10=330 tons)
It worked 11.47 am (SO) Glasgow via Edinburgh & Newcastle to Whitley Bay arr 4.13 pm (ECS to Little Benton)
It then stabled for the whole week and ran ECS from Preston Colly to Whitley Bay for an 11.30 am (SO) departure back to Glasgow via Morpeth (reverse) & Edinburgh.

[(Percy Main)]

We had school trips by special train from Cullercoats to Edinburgh in the early 60s that took the same route north. The special closely followed an electric train into the station and hundreds of us boarded in the twenty minute interval. I have an idea that it had waited its turn in the centre road at Tynemouth. There was an electric morning express to Newcastle via Benton that used to do that before starting at Cullercoats.

I was probably dozing on the school trip coming back but I don’t remember it reversing at Morpeth. On the way out the teachers pretended the reversal was actually the train returning home because of our bad behaviour.

[(Percy Main)]

I have just come across an article by David R. Smith in the February 2008 North Eastern Express of the North Eastern Railway Association (Volume 47 No 189) that gives details from the summer 1938 working timetable of summer Sunday day excursions from Scotland to Whitley Bay. The trains (one each from Edinburgh and Glasgow) reversed at Newcastle Central before continuing via North Shields to Tynemouth and Whitley Bay. They then continued as empty stock to Heaton carriage sidings via Backworth and the Benton south east curve. In the evening the empty stock followed the same route via the curve to Whitley Bay and then on to Newcastle again to reverse.

These day excursions were not reintroduced after the war, but in the 1948 summer timetable a Saturdays only train from Glasgow to Whitley Bay reversed at Newcastle Central and followed the above route calling at Tynemouth and then Whitley Bay. The return working did not call at the Central but apparently reversed at Heaton where the locomotives were changed.

This remained the pattern in 1961 but the return working (oddly) did not call at Tynemouth.

The author asked for confirmation as to whether return workings ran via the Avenue branch with a reversal at Morpeth. Neville Stead (of blessed memory) replied in the next edition (190) that the 1953 timetable showed the return running via the Avenue, and in a subsequent edition (192) that in 1961 a stop (to pick up only) was made at Bedlington) [both as reported above by WTTReprinter], the locomotives were then changed following reversal at Morpeth.

The Newcastle - Tynemouth/Whitley Bay part of the journey is advertised in the 1960 public timetable alongside the electrics. Presumably you could use a local ticket to travel on it (perhaps even buy a first class one)?

[BlythStationLad]

It's been a while since I've been on this Forum and have only just seen this thread. Northbound services were hauled via The Avenue by a Heaton engine which was detached once it reached the Up Main platform at Morpeth. It then then run back to Heaton light engine.

At Morpeth a new loco would be waiting to back onto what had been the rear of the stock to head to Glasgow down the ECML.

Photos in the North Eastern Railway Association's digital archive (www.nera.org.uk) show this event on a Saturday in Aug 1961, the original Sulzer Type 2 loco being replaced at Morpeth by an A3. This may have been the last year of operation.

[AndyG]

Photos in the North Eastern Railway Association's digital archive (www.nera.org.uk) ...

Link should be https://ner.org.uk/ .

Andy

[Dixie]

I have just picked up this thread.. My Summer 1950 WTT Section Q shows a departure from Glasgow at 12.20, Edinburgh at 1.45, Newcastle at4.17 and departing at 4.25 with arrival at Whitley Bay at 4.53 . Train No 1145.The ECS arrives at Little Benton at 5.9 and refers you to WTT Sect V8 - which I do not have!
The reverse trip departs Tynemouth 10.8, arrives Morpeth at 10.48 and after a stop to change engines there, departs 10.54. Arrives Edinburgh at 1.15 and Glasgow Low Level at 2.26pm. Train No 148. Reference to Sect V page 20.
Does Section V throw any light on what happens in SE Northumberland ?