Brick trains

[Cutter]

I am curious about the trains of brick wagons that ran between Fletton and London. How many brick wagons would usually comprise a train? Thanks.

[Hatfield Shed]

That would be interesting to know. The survey by Geoff Goslin 'Goods traffic of the LNER', suggests that the movements New England - Ferme Park changed in 1935 from what had been 80 wagon to 50 wagon loads in order to increase running speeds. The book has good pictures of the up coal trains with a fitted head of one or two bogie brick wagons, but not one of an all-brick train. When you look at the scheduled paths allocated to the brick trains, the reason is clear, most operated in the dark...

[john coffin]

As an interesting aside, I have recently seen a copy LNER working timetable which talks about ex 50 ton brick wagons
being used on the "Ashburton Pullman" which was the somewhat infamous rubbish train. Don't know how many
were on each train, but just goes to show how widely certain improbable wagons were used post grouping.

Paul

[Hatfield Shed]

Living in the vicinity of the branches serving the offload points for the Ashburton Pullman (train title on the branches was Stink train) by the 1960s the usual big bogie wagon was the Sulphate, and in the final ten years of operation to Blackbridge tip, rarely anything but extremely battered 16 tonners.

Historical note. This service of dumping London's waste in worked out sand and gravel pits in Hertfordshire commenced in GNR days, and was a major source of entertainment. An earlier tip site was on the down side of the main line just south of 'twentieth mile' bridge, adjacent the tiny settlement of Hatfield Hyde. The young men would engage in competition on Friday evenings, putting on their 'ratty slacks' and competing for the largest haul (for which the local magistrate would pay a small sum per rat tail). We have documentary evidence...

[Cutter]

I grew up in Welwyn Garden City and from our living room could see trains passing along the Luton branch line briefly silhouetted against the sky. I now realize that the long "carriages" I remember seeing were likely former LNER brick wagons hauling London trash. Another childhood memory is waving to the guard on these trains as they passed through the woods near our house, but I don't recall what their trains consisted of.
I imagine that, given the weight of their loads, the brick wagons did not form long trains.

[Hatfield Shed]

I imagine that, given the weight of their loads, the brick wagons did not form long trains.

The controlling factor would have been the small load capacity of the four wheel wagons, typically a maximum of 12 tons, these with a tare weight of 6 to 7 tons, but there were plenty of smaller and lighter tare and load open wagons still in service. Since the pre-1935 trains were nominally loaded either to 1,350 or 1,450 tons (I have seen both figures from sources various) 80 wagons from an assortment of opens loaded to their capacities is entirely possible in the pre1935 operation.

The exciting train would be 20 of the bogie brick wagons fully loaded, which with a P1 up front could have made the trip non-stop, with an end to end average of 50mph probably achievable. Of course with only 50 wagons of this design availabIe two loaded trains a day would be the likely limit as the 19,800 bricks per wagon were hand loaded and offloaded. I also expect the civil engineer may have had some concern for his track...

[jwealleans]

There would also be the question of offloading at destination. I've seen it asserted somewhere that it was a full day for two men to offload one wagon (and the offloaded bricks woudl need to be moved/stacked as well). Except on a very large site, 20,000 bricks is enough for a number of days' requirements, so I'd hazard that one wagon every few days would be more than enough for any one customer's needs. That would also fit well with the practice of attaching penny numbers at the head of an unfitted train to increase braking force.

I've seen a picture of a single 50 tonner being unloaded at Leicester and I'm fairly sure the accompanying commentary mentioned that single wagons were what was usually seen for all the reasons above.

[john coffin]

My understanding was that in most cases, the introduction the large Gresley designed brick wagon was to do with the growing
building industry in London during the pre First War years, and that bricks were sent to stockists rather than individual sites.
Also I think they were moved to a level site alongside the wagon rather than as being loaded up a ramp.

I have seen pictures of women loading the brick wagons some where, not sure where, and also I seem to remember that
the Ivatt K1 0-8-0 ( LNER Q1) was introduced to pull these long trains, and I am sure there is a photo somewhere, but I do not have it
sadly.

It's also worth remembering that the GNR was notorious for building locos that could haul more than their sidings could handle
think Steam Tenders, Stirling West Riding 0-6-0's and later the P1's
Paul

[Hatfield Shed]

...It's also worth remembering that the GNR was notorious for building locos that could haul more than their sidings could handle...

Thus the finest choice of line for railway modelling, you can have bigger traction and more stock than your layout's track can accomodate, and you are being faithful to protoype.

[Hatfield Shed]

I have seen pictures of women loading the brick wagons some where, not sure where, and also I seem to remember that
the Ivatt K1 0-8-0 ( LNER Q1) was introduced to pull these long trains, and I am sure there is a photo somewhere, but I do not have it
sadly...

Would this GNR bogie brick wagon be the 30 ton load all steel vehicle produced by Hurst Nelson, that is mentioned by Tatlow in volume 1 of his LNER wagons books, with the remark that it was extinct by the grouping?

[manna]

G'Day Gents

No, the Brick wagons had a long life, still working in the late 50's. After life with BR, Vauxhall bought some to transfer car bodies around there Luton car plant, probably worked into the 1970's

manna

[john coffin]

No I mean the 50 tonner designed very early on by Gresley

[rockinjohn]

Hi can remember seeing the 50ton wooden boogie "brick "wagons with the name "Fletton"printed on the side,but loaded with Sacks of Potatoes, not sure of the tonnage carried if loaded with potatoes, floors lined with straw in KX Goods yard possibly a 350hp shunting or earlier a J52 the Cross had enough @ that time.

[kimballthurlow]

…….. pictures of the up coal trains with a fitted head of one or two bogie brick wagons, but not one of an all-brick train. When you look at the scheduled paths allocated to the brick trains, the reason is clear, most operated in the dark...

I am sure I read the same information before, probably on this forum. It was to the effect that only one or two bogie bricks were ever included in a train for a few reasons most of which is covered here. Also their use for other loadings was discussed.
Kimball

[Hatfield Shed]

... only one or two bogie bricks were ever included in a train for a few reasons most of which is covered here...

'Tis a shame that. Being of the certifiably bonkers persuasion, should RTR OO ever receive a P1 (go on Hornby...) I will be strongly tempted to put together a 20 x bogie brick wagon train. How the UK's railways should have made progress post WWI, instead of fooling around with teeny-weeny unbraked wagons for the next fifty years...