Flangeless Wheels for a 12 Wheel Coach

[Jim de Griz]

Has anyone ever produced a flangeless wheel set for coaches?

I have an Isinglass 12 Wheel Restaurant Car, a lovely model that I am very proud of. However, she can struggle to reliably negotiate the fairly congested point work at the throat of my station.

On a hunch, I removed the middle axles which massively improved the smoothness of her running. But, now I need to figure out what to replace them with.

A set of flangeless wheels seem like the best bet, but I can't find any being offered for sale. Do they exist? Or do I need to figure out how to make my own?

I'm tempted to borrow an old Airfix trick and fit a pair of fixed plastic wheels filed down so they don't quite touch the rails.

Jim de Griz

[jwealleans]

How visible are the missing wheels? Do you need to bother?

If you do, then what you've suggested is the best option, followed by turning the flanges off a pair of wheels with a coarse file while they're rotating in a minidrill (usual safety recommendations apply).

I have a couple of 12 wheel coaches and have never had a problem even on the extreme bits of Grantham pointwork. How tight are your curves?

Have you pivoted them centrally? Both mine used 247 bogies where the pivot is between the inner pair of axles, which may make a difference.

[Jim de Griz]

The wheels absence would annoy me, but would not be too noticeable unless your looking. The bogies came centrally pivoted, I lack the skills to reliably alter them and would struggle to remove them to be honest. Thank you for the suggestion though.

The coach will negotiate most of my point work (with is predominately Peco streamline mediums), but is unreliable over a 3 way point in the middle of the station throat. It doesn't feel like it is binding, but every so often the leading bogies lifts and that promptly derails the coach. Removing the middle wheels seems to fix this problem. (Something else to consider is the coach was ballasted on the assumption of 6 axles, I've just increased the effective weight per axle by 50%)

Impressively it will go round the 2nd radius curves. It is a touch tight, but that is because I lowered the ride height to match Hornby's old Gresley', originally it ran very smoothly. Removing the middle wheels hasn't changed that as the problem is the outer wheels' flanges are catching on the underframe. A little more filing to increase the clearances should fix that particular problem.

Jim de Griz

[Hatfield Shed]

...The coach will negotiate most of my point work (with is predominately Peco streamline mediums), but is unreliable over a 3 way point in the middle of the station throat...

I would suggest that the 3 way might be the dodgy article. When I was re-entering the hobby, every item of code 100 Peco streamline pointwork then available was tested for running reliability, and that one got a big fat fail...

[Jim de Griz]

The point might be the issue, though the majority of my rolling stock clears it (and those that don't are mostly on my list to be fixed/modified)

For better or worse, the point is at the centre of my layout and probably can't be lifted for replacement.

Jim de Griz

[MikeTrice]

If you use Alan Gibson wheels there is a good chance you could remove the tyres from the plastic centres which would also give clearance above the rails.

[john coffin]

why not use smaller flanges, ie have you tried finescale OO wheels which would surely mean you do not have to
scoop out more of the underframe?

Paul

[Jim de Griz]

I’m currently using Romfords, but I wouldn't be adverse to picking up a pair of Gibson wheels to try that. How difficult would it be to remove the tires?

John, would you be able to recommend a manufacturer of fine-scale wheels? Its not something I’ve previously looked at. I’ve got a 180degree 2nd radius curve at the end of the layout, would that be an issue with fine-scale flanges?

Jim de Griz

[Atlantic 3279]

Is it definitely code 100 Peco track that is use?

Are the back-to-back settings on all of the wheelsets correct for that kind of track (I imagine 14.5mm or less suits Peco code 100)

Are the middle wheelsets in each six wheeled bogie provided with any freedom to rise, fall and move sideways, or are they running on axles held rigidly in close-fitting pin-point bearings?

Do all of the axles lie in a single flat plane?

I'd check all of those, and try to observe very closely at the lowest possible speed the actual process of the occasional derailment in order to see what might need to be altered before altering anything. If necessary, perhaps de-mount a bogie and push it by hand through the offending point to see what can be made to go wrong when the flanges are pushed up against the various check rails.

If the middle wheelsets in the bogies are too rigidly mounted, or are set slightly low compared to the outer sets, one thing to consider would be a way of re-mounting them so that they float, lightly sprung or lightly loaded, or maybe just so that they are a much looser fit in the pin-point cups.

I had some problems with stock on Gibson, one instance of Sharman, and even some on Markits wheels that could not be altered (either because it would spoil the stock or because it had to continue to be able to run properly on finer OO track) but which needed to be used on Peco code 100 pointwork too. In the end, I could only suppress the tendency to derailment around point crossings by selectively bonding shim strips of 0.010" and 0.015" black plasticard to the faces of check rails in the code 100 track. Universal it is not.

[MikeTrice]

I’m currently using Romfords, but I wouldn't be adverse to picking up a pair of Gibson wheels to try that. How difficult would it be to remove the tires?

A while back people complained that the tyres fell off. The plastic centres are a push fit into the tyre. I believe the current wheels are much better in keeping their tyres on but the same construction method still applies, they are a push fit, so should be capable of removal. If all else fails you might have to place a wheel and tyre on a flat surface with packing under the tyres and drift the centre out. The tyres are fitted from the front so lay the wheel cosmetic side up.

[Jim de Griz]

Is it definitely code 100 Peco track that is use?

The three way and other points are, the track is a mixture of hornby and peco.

I’ll re-check the back-backs, they were correct when built and looked correct when I did a visual check the other day but I didn’t have the right tool to hand to do a proper check.

The bogies are 3d printed from Isinglass, the axles certain look to be in line and all wheels look like they are sitting flat on the track. The middle axles are on pin point bearing with no movement either vertically or horizontally.

Unfortunately, due to the way I fixed them to the coach, it would be difficult to remove the bogies for alteration and almost impossible to refit them afterwards.

If other options fail I’ll have a look at adding strips to the check rails. However, I have a lot of legacy stock with large flanges that already dislikes some of the newer pointwork. I’m slowly going through replacing wheels, but in the medium term I’m concerned that would result in more derailments of the older stock.

Jim de Griz

[Jim de Griz]

A while back people complained that the tyres fell off. The plastic centres are a push fit into the tyre. I believe the current wheels are much better in keeping their tyres on but the same construction method still applies, they are a push fit, so should be capable of removal. If all else fails you might have to place a wheel and tyre on a flat surface with packing under the tyres and drift the centre out. The tyres are fitted from the front so lay the wheel cosmetic side up.

So ideally I want some of the old stock

Its useful to know you can get the tires off, I’ll look into that.

Jim de Griz

[Atlantic 3279]

Given that the middle axleboxes will be tricky to drill out any deeper, maintaining their correct centres, as you won't have decent drill access from within the bogie structure, and given that once deepened they cannot be put back the way they were, there is something you could perhaps try with one spare wheelset: Twist off wheels and put them safe, trim maybe 0.5mm (no more than 1mm at most I suggest) from one end of the axle and then restore the point, say by spinning it in safely clamped electric drill and cautiously using a fine file or oilstone. Check that the slightly shortened axle will still stay in the bearings in the bogie, as a sloppy fit. Put the wheels back on the axle with BTB correct and equal amounts of axle projecting at both ends. See if the bogie then behaves where it previously did not. If the middle wheels are then too light on their feet, a bit of weight or light pressure from a springy wire riding on that axle may be required to keep them firmly on the rails. If all fails, you can still put a standard wheelset back in.

[earlswood nob]

Good morning all from sunny Surrey

I deal with fixed chassis 6 wheel wagons etc., by puling the wheels off Gibson carriage axles.
Then substituting a length of tubing (2mm) for the Gibson axle using superglue.
I then cut a length of rod which will fit inside the 2mm tubing, file the ends of the rod into points.
When fitted together I have a sliding axle with approx 1.5mm side play.
This works well for 6 wheel wagons etc.
BTW; this is not original thought, but picked up from this forum some years ago.

Earlswood nob (a signalbox south of Earlswood station before the line was extended to 4 track (c1900)

[mick b]

Peco 3 way points are only 2 ft radius , not surprising that the bogies dont like them.