Ferme Park South UP

[Mickey]

Any information about this s/box?. I vaguely recall seeing the box from a passing train I believe after closure in the second-half of 1967 shortly before it was dismantled although someone has previously said that the box closed a year later in 1968?. I assume this small box was built sometime around the 1890s and stood near to the Harringay flyover on the Up side of the running lines into Kings Cross and what today is the south end to the exit to the Hornsey EMU carriage sidings. I assume after Ferme Park North Up box was closed (sometime between the 1920s and 1940s?) Ferme Park South Up box then worked with Hornsey Up Goods on one side and Harringay Up Goods on the other side and also I assume it would have been under permissive block working on both the Up Goods no.1 and Up Goods no.2 lines between the aforementioned previously named boxes?.

As the box was quite small I assume the lever frame was of only around 20-25 levers maximum(?) and when I saw the box (after closure) on two or three separate occasions from a passing train during the second-half of 1967 I think the box was painted in a all over grey colour except for it's slate roof anyway I have never seen any track diagrams or hand drawn track layouts for this box or any pictures either although one is featured in a Peter Coster book on the LNER.

[S&T]

The details I have in my database for Ferme Park South Up box are:
- Abolished 08/09/1968
- 3 miles 48 chains
- Located diagonally opposite Ferme Park South Down, just below Harringay Fly-over

The picture attached, taken by Mr Alan A Jackson, shows the box.....but you have to have good eyesight to spot it. Ferme Park South Down is obviously on the left of the picture, but you can just make out Ferme Park South Up box, seen through the spans of the fly-over just to the right of the water tower. I believe this picture was part of the Lightmoor Press Books - Railway Archive Issue 10....just to ensure it is correctly attributed to the original photo taker and the subsequent printing.

S&T

[S&T]

Further to my last post....the attached PW diagram shows the track layout of Ferme Park in general. I have circled (in red) the location of the Ferme Park South Up box. Thought it might be of interest. Date unknown.
S&T

[Mickey]

Thanks Steve. Yeah the closure date of 1968 was mentioned by someone else once before which I don't dispute but for some reason I have always thought it closed in 1967 but that is probably caused by the large gap in time in my memory between 1968 and recent years?.

As for the map featuring Ferme Park Up sidings yeah interesting and apart from the two goods lines no.1 and no.2 that both ran parallel to each other between Hornsey Up Goods box and Harringay Up Goods box also I believe as well there was a single 'engine line' that ran from Hornsey Up Goods then around the back of Hornsey loco shed and then it straightened up and ran towards and passed Ferme Park South Up box and on towards Harringay Up Goods box and in fact I did travel over this 'engine line' on a light engine (class 31) back in the summer of 1975 when track rationalization work was being carried out at Hornsey Up Goods and along with the construction of the new Hornsey EMU sidings and shed accommodate work was then in progress at that time. From a faded memory either one or both the goods lines between Hornsey Up Goods to Harringay Up Goods were taken out of use (temporarily) so the 'bobby' in Hornsey Up Goods ran the light engine that I was on as a secondman back up towards Finsbury Park via this engine line that went around the site of the old Hornsey loco shed which by 1975 was all 'open ground' and onwards towards the Harringay Up Goods box direction.

Again from a faded memory of 45+ years ago I have a feeling that diesel hauled ECS that departed Hornsey CS for Kings Cross at this time the summer of 1975 use to be 'temporarily routed for several months' during that year via this 'engine line' after departing Hornsey CS because of all the rationalization work that was then in progress in and around the Hornsey and Ferme Park area especially on the UP side of the running lines and also from memory either both of or one of the Up Goods lines between Hornsey Up Goods and Harringay Up Goods was 'taken out of use' for several months although I believe one of the 'Goods lines' was subsequently reinstated after the track rationalization was completed but the second goods line wasn't.

[S&T]

As for the map featuring Ferme Park Up sidings yeah interesting and apart from the two goods lines no.1 and no.2 that both ran parallel to each other between Hornsey Up Goods box and Harringay Up Goods box also I believe as well there was a single 'engine line' that ran from Hornsey Up Goods then around the back of Hornsey loco shed and then it straightened up and ran towards and passed Ferme Park South Up box and on towards Harringay Up Goods box and in fact I did travel over this 'engine line' on a light engine (class 31) back in the summer of 1975 when track rationalization work was being carried out at Hornsey Up Goods and along with the construction of the new Hornsey EMU sidings and shed accommodate work was then in progress at that time.

Very interesting Mickey....
Looking at the map / track layout....As well as the expected Up Goods No1 and No2 lines, I can see evidence of a through line that routes to the west of the Hornsey loco shed then on through the sidings and then appears as "engine line" on the Harringay West Up Goods box diagram. I have attached a map of Hornsey loco and box diagrams of Hornsey Up Goods and Harringay West Up Goods (source of pictures unknown). It might help to piece it all together.
S&T

Note - attachments being sent across multiple posts due to file size

[S&T]

Harringay West Up Goods attachment

[S&T]

Hornsey Loco map

[Mickey]

Interesting S&T. I have a complete S&T diagram showing the complete track layout and signal and points numbers of Hornsey Up Goods box dated 1959 and from memory this S&T diagram was due to some track and signalling alterations that took place at the box at that date. From memory and without having the said Hornsey Up Goods track diagram close at hand the 'alterations' from memory I believe was due to the abolition of the connection from the Up Carriage/Up Goods line at Hornsey Up Goods leading into the Up Slow line at Hornsey no.2 and also the abolition of the connection from the Up Slow line at Hornsey no.2 leading into the Up Goods no.1 & no.2 lines with both these boxes Hornsey no.2 and Hornsey Up Goods both having mechanical lever control over both of these two connections but I will have to have another look at the diagram again to clarify it?.

The three track diagrams of Hornsey Up Goods that you have posted are from a later period. The top diagram of Hornsey Up Goods is possibly from the 1970-1973 period(?) with the middle diagram of the three I would say was applicable after Hornsey no.2 was closed in June 1973 until about the summer of 1975 and the very bottom diagram I would say was only a 'temporary' diagram being applicable for maybe the last year or eighteen months of the existence of the box between the summer of 1975-1976 when the box finally closed.

The Harringay Up Goods track diagram was also another 'temporary' track diagram that was applicable after Harringay (passenger) box was closed in August 1973 and the Up fast and Up slow lines were 'put onto Harringay Up Goods' box to shorten the 'block section' on the Up fast and Up slow lines between Wood Green Up Box no.4 and Finsbury Park no.6 especially after Hornsey no.2 box had previously been closed in June 1973. The Up fast and Up slow lines never seemed quite right somehow being worked by Harringay Up Goods box to me?.

[S&T]

The three track diagrams of Hornsey Up Goods that you have posted are from a later period. The top diagram of Hornsey Up Goods is possibly from the 1970-1973 period(?) with the middle diagram of the three I would say was applicable after Hornsey no.2 was closed in June 1973 until about the summer of 1975 and the very bottom diagram I would say was only a 'temporary' diagram being applicable for maybe the last year or eighteen months of the existence of the box between the summer of 1975-1976 when the box finally closed.

Thanks Mickey for the box diagram date information…..I always wondered about when these different stages took place and can link it back to the various stageworks in that area now.
Cheers
S&T

[Mickey]

The three track diagrams of Hornsey Up Goods that you have posted are from a later period. The top diagram of Hornsey Up Goods is possibly from the 1970-1973 period(?) with the middle diagram of the three I would say was applicable after Hornsey no.2 was closed in June 1973 until about the summer of 1975 and the very bottom diagram I would say was only a 'temporary' diagram being applicable for maybe the last year or eighteen months of the existence of the box between the summer of 1975-1976 when the box finally closed.

Thanks Mickey for the box diagram date information…..I always wondered about when these different stages took place and can link it back to the various stageworks in that area now.
Cheers
S&T

Yeah no problem S&T although the dates that I have posted are a presumption on my part but the bottom and last diagram was definitely from the 1975-76 era when the box finally closed. At that time in the summer of 1975 a lot of track rationalization work and signalling alterations were taking place at Hornsey Up Goods and along with the construction of the Hornsey EMU sidings a short distance away and also the rebuilding work of the stations in the inner suburban area including Hornsey and Harringay and Wood Green (subsequently renamed Alexandra Palace in 1982) plus the 'slewing of the running lines' through Harringay during the early summer of 1974 all added to the overall changes that were taking place but as far as Hornsey Up Goods box was concerned I have a feeling from memory that for several months during the summer of 1975 the only line (or road) that was open to exit the Hornsey CS (and possibly to enter Hornsey CS?) was that 'engine line' which was possibly 'bi-directional'(?) although I don't know how it was signalled between Hornsey Up Goods and Harringay Up Goods box(?) that I have previously mentioned. The 'engine line' originated at Hornsey Up Goods and then turned left and then went 'around the back of the demolished Hornsey loco and eventually it straightened up and eventually arrived at Harringay Up Goods. Also at the same time during the summer months of 1975 I remember that a load of redundant prefab track lengths were stacked up about 10 ft high outside Hornsey Up Goods box which no doubt inhibited the view of the signalman in the box which I thought was a bit daft?. Anyway at that particular time I was a secondman at Kings Cross loco so when I was on a particular diagram working ECS from Hornsey CS into Kings Cross I had a 'front row seat' so to speak of what was happening in the Kings Cross area at that time with the modernization and rationalization work that was taking place.

I am fairly certain I remember seeing full-length trains of main line stock made up of B.R.Mk1s & Mk2s being worked by class 31s travelling via that 'engine line' between Hornsey Up Goods and Harringay Up Goods after departing Hornsey CS and heading up to Kings Cross during the summer months of 1975 although as for the 'method of signalling' for trains travelling over that 'engine line' was concerned between Hornsey Up Goods and Harringay Up Goods I assume under 'normal circumstances' when all trains only travelled in the ONE DIRECTION between Hornsey Up Goods and Harringay Up Goods it was done 'over the telephone' between both signalmen being as I assumed that it was a 'No block line' but IF IT WAS A BI-DERECTIONAL LINE(?) that 'engine line' then I really don't know how it was worked between both those two boxes because I don't remember any 'single line train staff' being handed to the loco crew of any train travelling over that 'engine line' in either direction that's 'if it was a bi-directional' single line?. I remember when departing Hornsey Up Goods the only 'fixed signal' that a driver would receive was a red miniature semaphore signal arm no.76 which was close to Hornsey Up Goods box and that would then take a driver all the way to Harringay Up Goods and a red ground disc signal no.35 but as I said as for trains or light engines going in the other direction from Harringay Up Goods to Hornsey Up Goods I really can't say how that was worked IF IT WAS A BI-DIRECTIONAL LINE(?) because as I have previously said I don't remember any 'single line train staff' being handed to the driver by the signalmen in either of the two boxes concerned for any travelling over the 'engine line' in either direction?.

[Mickey]

Following on from my post above.

Thinking about it again nearly 50 years later I have a vague memory of travelling on a light engine one day back in 1975 which was no doubt a Finsbury Park blue livered class 31 as a secondman on a ECS diagram and travelling over the 'engine line' from Harringay Up Goods box to Hornsey Up Goods box and on into Hornsey CS and passing the then new Hornsey EMU sidings and accommodation shed on our left before we rounded a left-hand and then right-hand curve and arriving at Hornsey Up Goods box after which our loco was routed into one of the carriage roads and onto our train of ECS to work back up to Kings Cross. Also from the same memory I don't recall any single line 'train staff' being handed to us before we departed Harringay Up Goods box giving us authority or permission to travel over that 'engine line' in the opposite direction to what was the normal southwards direction of travel over that line(?) but on the other hand maybe we were handed a 'train staff' and I have forgotten that we did?.

Still nearly 50 years on it doesn't really matter anymore...

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Don't ever remember a staff being handed over to travel over the engine line with a train, but who knows. But who remembers the 'Fireman's Call plunger' near the front of the shed, when travelling to Hornsey CS.

manna

[Mickey]

Don't ever remember a staff being handed over to travel over the engine line with a train, but who knows. But who remembers the 'Fireman's Call plunger' near the front of the shed, when travelling to Hornsey CS.

Normally that 'engine line' that ran between Hornsey Up Goods to Harringay Up Goods I always assumed was to be travelled over it in the UP direction only between both boxes so while the only (temporary) access to enter Hornsey CS and the 'Group 2 sidings' in particular was available and was via that 'engine line' entering it from the Harringay Up Goods end I would have assumed that some sort of 'single line working' would have be instituted between both boxes either in the form of a 'train staff' or by a 'pilotman' riding on the loco with the crew although as you also said manna the one time that i can remember travelling over that line on a light engine in the wrong direction to the 'normal direction of travel' as a secondman I also don't recall either being handed a 'train staff' or having a pilotman travelling on the loco with us from Harringay Up Goods to Hornsey Up Goods either?.

During the summer of 1975 for either a few weeks of a month or two(?) due to track alterations at Hornsey Up Goods the only way to have accessed Hornsey carriage sidings and definitely the 'Group 2 sidings' was from Harringay Up Goods and then travelling over the single line called the 'engine line' to Hornsey Up Goods.