Kings Cross 1932 Box & 232 Lever SGE Power Frame

[Mickey]

On the Transport Video Publishing dvd Kings Cross Suburban it is wrongly claimed that the 1932 box closed in 1976 which is surprising because David Percival who has been around the GN suburban area for the last 60 odd years wrote the script for the commentary for the dvd plus the new Kings Cross PSB was partly opened in late 1971 when the 1932 box was closed and was working the station and Belle Isle areas until the summer of 1976?. The old 1932 box after closure in late 1971 then stood redundant until about 1976 before it was finally demolished.

[S&T]

I have the following dates in my notes…..but how I came about these exact dates I can no longer recall:

Box opened 02.10.1932, closed 26.09.1971.

Mickey - Your previous (very interesting) post regarding witnessing the final movements on the change-over weekend mentions October 1971, so I might be wrong on my dates. I guess there must have been some kind of ‘SN’ stageworks notification at the time, so I will try and search for something that relates to that.

Cheers
Steve

[Mickey]

I have the following dates in my notes…..but how I came about these exact dates I can no longer recall:

Box opened 02.10.1932, closed 26.09.1971.

Mickey - Your previous (very interesting) post regarding witnessing the final movements on the change-over weekend mentions October 1971, so I might be wrong on my dates. I guess there must have been some kind of ‘SN’ stageworks notification at the time, so I will try and search for something that relates to that.

Steve the closure date for the 1932 box that you have is the correct month I would say because I can't remember if it was September or October but two things stayed in my mind from that signalling changeover weekend in 1971 firstly I vaguely remember that it was a dry but slightly chilly night end of September and when I returned to Kings Cross that same Sunday evening on a train into the terminus it was still 'daylight' between 6:00-6:30 pm so obviously the clocks hadn't gone back as they would have done if it been in late October so therefore it must have been the 26th September.

The final main line departure from Kings Cross station signalled by the old 1932 signal box in September 1971.

With regards to the final main line departure from Kings Cross that was signalled by the old 1932 box from memory it was bit of a sad but a slightly poignant moment to witness as I stood alone by myself at the country end of the old no.10 platform in the early hours of that Sunday morning. Also standing at the country end of the old no.10 platform was the 1:15 am Newcastle hauled by a blue liverered Brush type 4 (class 47) and standing just short of the red aspect platform colour light starting signal(s) with it's long train of B.R.Mk1s and assortment of B.R.BGs and GUVs at the rear of the train when just before 1:15 am the old 'roller blind route indicator' rolled around one last time to show an illuminated M1 and a green colour light aspect below it on the T-bracket post opposite the 1932 box as well as a green aspect in the platform starting signal and a green aspect in the colour light signal at the entrance to Gasworks tunnel on the Down Main no.1 line. A moment or two later whistles could be heard further along platform no.10 and a green bardic lamp could be seen in the far distance along platform no.10 as the train guard gave the driver the 'right away' as the 1:15 Newcastle slowly pulled it's train along and out of no.10 platform. As I stood at the platform end and watched the 1:15 Newcastle pull out of no.10 platform I watched the colour light signal opposite the old 1932 box on the T-bracket post go from a green back to a red aspect and the old roller blind illuminated M1 rolled back to a blank and the illumination went out for the last train and the last time...

[StevieG]

" .... The final main line departure from Kings Cross station signalled by the old 1932 signal box in September 1971. .... "

" .... and the old roller blind illuminated M1 rolled back to a blank and the illumination went out for the last train and the last time... .... "

As (the great majority of) the old signalling, including the A, B, C, D and E Routes' roller-blind Route Indicators, remained until 1977, I don't think the above text is quite right Mickey ?

[Mickey]

Yeah you are correct Stevie but I was actually thinking that was the last time the M1 route indicator blind for a departing train the 1:15 am Kings Cross to Newcastle departing from the old platform no.10 was signalled from the terminus by the 1932 box on the night that the 1932 box was decommissioned (abolished) on that Sunday morning and not afterwards by the then new Kings Cross PSB located over in York Road station area although the M1 & M2 roller blinds were changed to show F1 & F2 either from that weekend of the resignalling changeover or soon after as Steve confirmed in a earlier post of his.

[Mickey]

I presume why the old 1932 box wasn't demolished soon after it was decommissioned (abolished) in September 1971 but later on in 1976 was possibly because the Kings Cross shunters use to have a lobby on the ground underneath the box and I believe a chargehand/supervisor use to have a lobby for himself there as well?.

I presume with the introduction of the HSTs in 1976 the Kings Cross shunters weren't required as much as in the past?.

[S&T]

….all levers normal and not even one track circuit occupied on the diagram (hard to tell here).

So….this led me to think about track circuit display. The original diagram installed in 1932 operated on the basis that track circuits were illuminated white continually and the relevant track circuit indicator extinguished when the track circuit was occupied (this method I understand is used on the London Underground). Was this the case in the final years or had the method changed to the reverse…e.g. illuminated when track circuit occupied and, if so, was it still a white indication?

[StevieG]

….all levers normal and not even one track circuit occupied on the diagram (hard to tell here).

So….this led me to think about track circuit display. The original diagram installed in 1932 operated on the basis that track circuits were illuminated white continually and the relevant track circuit indicator extinguished when the track circuit was occupied (this method I understand is used on the London Underground). Was this the case in the final years or had the method changed to the reverse…e.g. illuminated when track circuit occupied and, if so, was it still a white indication?

I think you're right about the original diagram's TC indications. That would accord with Fins. Park No.7's diagram (of customary LNE/BR(E) style with white 'lozenge'- shaped indications) which was operating that same 'ultimate fail-safe' way in c.1969 (only three Track Circuits left), and which was doubtless gained when the LNER did the FP7 - Park Junction multiple aspect resignalling around the same time.
LT aside, that FP7 diagram and the one at the ex-GCR (LNER from the Grouping) Neasden South Junction box were the only ones that I ever saw operate that way.

No idea when the different, later (also usual LNE/BR(E) style including white 'lozenge' lights) single KX diagram replaced the two predecessors I'm afraid, but by around c.1968 was the then usual lights out for TCs Clear. in operation. (Else my 'no TC lights lit' photo would've meant that every TC was indicating 'Not Clear' ! )

[StevieG]

" .... I presume why the old 1932 box wasn't demolished soon after it was decommissioned (abolished) in September 1971 but later on in 1976 was possibly because the Kings Cross shunters use to have a lobby on the ground underneath the box and I believe a chargehand/supervisor use to have a lobby for himself there as well?. .... "

I've an idea that at least some of this sounds likely to be correct Mickey.
But I think it might well also have been the case that the altering of platform end lengths and alignments were left until the main remodelling project was going to commence (1976-ish) and so the old box wasn't in the way and any additional possessions for demolition were unnecessary - I should think.

[silverfox]

StevieG
ge i go
This may be a long way down your project list ,but if you do get as far as designing the locking system. I can recommend that you give Model Engineers Laser

I have had many parts done by them for my B17 GE Tender and they can cut to a very high degree of accuracy

Ron

[Mickey]

" .... I presume why the old 1932 box wasn't demolished soon after it was decommissioned (abolished) in September 1971 but later on in 1976 was possibly because the Kings Cross shunters use to have a lobby on the ground underneath the box and I believe a chargehand/supervisor use to have a lobby for himself there as well?. .... "

I've an idea that at least some of this sounds likely to be correct Mickey.
But I think it might well also have been the case that the altering of platform end lengths and alignments were left until the main remodelling project was going to commence (1976-ish) and so the old box wasn't in the way and any additional possessions for demolition were unnecessary - I should think.

I reckon you are probably correct in that assumption Stevie.

51 years on in 2022 it's not beyond the realms of possibly that someone would have suggested dismantling the 1932 box if it was being abolished this weekend and reassembling in it's entirety somewhere else possibly on the Leicester and Loughborough main line or at Sheringham on the North Norfolk Railway.

Also and this isn't meant as a facetious comment but I have occasionally thought of a rebuilt replica of Welwyn Garden City box circa 1968 with a working lever frame and block instruments all I need now is a £5 MILLION quid win on the lottery and we're away!!.

[S&T]

Also and this isn't meant as a facetious comment but I have occasionally thought of a rebuilt replica of Welwyn Garden City box circa 1968 with a working lever frame and block instruments all I need now is a £5 MILLION quid win on the lottery and we're away!!.

Well Mickey….When I was dreaming up this little project, I couldn’t decide between Kings Cross and WGC boxes…..both being favourites of mine and both with so much interest. Kings Cross won the day. I was based at both places with the S&T Dept….a few years after the boxes had gone alas. So, that decides it then….WGC is next on the list then !

Cheers
Steve

[S&T]

Model Engineers Laser

Thanks silverfox…..looks an interesting recommendation.
Steve

[S&T]

(Else my 'no TC lights lit' photo would've meant that every TC was indicating 'Not Clear' ! )

Exactly what caught my eye in the photo StevieG and hence looking into it a bit deeper. Thanks for clearing that up. I’m running with the TC indication lit for occupation in the build design.
Thx
Steve

[Mickey]

Also and this isn't meant as a facetious comment but I have occasionally thought of a rebuilt replica of Welwyn Garden City box circa 1968 with a working lever frame and block instruments all I need now is a £5 MILLION quid win on the lottery and we're away!!.

Well Mickey….When I was dreaming up this little project, I couldn’t decide between Kings Cross and WGC boxes…..both being favourites of mine and both with so much interest. Kings Cross won the day. I was based at both places with the S&T Dept….a few years after the boxes had gone alas. So, that decides it then….WGC is next on the list then !

Welwyn Garden City box when it was a NX panel between September 1973-September 1976 I presume you mean Steve was considered as a project?. You may have read in one of my previous posts I was actually at the box as a 'box lad' when the old lever frame was removed and the NX panel was commissioned back in September 1973 and I remained at the box in that copacity until March 1974 when the 'lads job' was abolished.

This is going to sound a bit spooky to some but occasionally in the last 5-10 years that old box has appeared in a number of my night time dreams and it's always the same scenario it is always the very last day of the box in operation before it finally closes (the box closed September 1976) and I decide to visit the box one last time. That old box must be buried deep in my psyche even 50 years on from when I was a 'box lad' at it.