LNER reporting numbers

[802220]

I wonder if anyone can help with any details of how the LNER's system of all numeric reporting numbers worked?

All I've come across so far is examples, typically the Scotch Goods as train "266" but presumably there is some background to how they came about and a particular way in which they were assigned?

Many thanks in advance!

[jwealleans]

I can give you a partial answer, but others will have to amplify it.

Passenger trains were numbered as in this example:

The numbers appear in GN Area carriage workings, but not ECML ones for the same period. You'd assume that the numnbering scheme was universal, but I don't have any goods documents which might show whether there were separate numbering schemes for freight and passenger, or one scheme which covered both.

I also don't know - hopefully we'll both find out - whether special swere numbered in their own series or blocks of numbers were left blank for Special use.

I'll be interested to see what other responses you have.

[802220]

I am not sure what you are after with these numbers?

The WTT train numbers in the late 1930s would not have the Scotch goods as '266'. Much too early in the day.

Was this in some publicity material?

Jonathan, The Carriage Working Book numbers relate to themselves internally I think, they are not train numbers in the WTTs.

Not sure this helps much.

John

There's quite a few references to the Scotch Goods as '266' including on this forum! viewtopic.php?t=2652

Without knowing how the system worked it's entirely possible that 266 doesn't indicate 266th train of the day.

I've also come across reference to this system persisting as a working number in the background once four character route indicating headcodes had been introduced in the sixties.

[JASd17]

Ok I now know where you are coming from. Why is your post named 'LNER reporting numbers'?

It has nothing to do with the LNER era. The numbers you are wanting are all British Railways era.

My post has been removed as not relevant, and I think should be from your reply too.

I could explain the LNER system of WTT numbers, but it does not seem appropriate here.

John

[802220]

Ok I now know where you are coming from. Why is your post named 'LNER reporting numbers''?

It has nothing to do with the LNER era. The numbers you are wanting are all British Railways era.

My post has been removed as not relevant, and I think should be from your reply too.

I could explain the LNER system of WTT numbers, but it does not seem appropriate here.

John

So is that to say that there are two distinct systems here, one LNER and one BR Eastern Region?

WTT 12/09/60 - 11/06/61, which appears to be the crossover year, shows, for instance, 20:20 Kings Cross to Edinburgh as 108 and as 1A66.

Am I correct to understand that 108 is a BR era Eastern Region system, and that there is another earlier LNER system? 1A66 clearly being the national BR scheme.

[thesignalman]

The LNER, like other railways, probably inherited a system of numbering from their constituent pre-grouping companies. For most railways the numbering originated as "column numbers" in timetables. But over the many years the numbers stuck with the trains and not the columns in the regularly revised schedules. New trains would be inserted using vacant numbers and when timetable books were split by area things became even more of a mess. But the mess is of no relevance - the trains were still individually identified.

John

[silverfox]

When i was at s chool at Wood Green, every Lunchtime and sometimes before and after school....hence the one O level lol. a Few of the lads had 'movement' books whereas we put down the train as a whole 1.20 Leeds/Bradford ( which was owrked for years,or so it seemed, 60111) they just put numbers IIRC the yhree lunchtime KX departures were 66 and 68 apologies if wrong but it was 60 years ago
These were given to them by a chap who also spent hours there. and worked at KX
Oh to have those books ,and just for any newer members , one lad Known as Blondie Johnson fin ally cleared the whole steam fleet during 1962 and his ECML obs were legendary as his garden faced the line
Another lad had a brother who worked in the dining cars Remember them? and was also train mad, so much so that he got hauled by all 202 pafics and a fair few V2s

I wonder if they are still around Tommy Know would love them

Merry Xmas to all

[802220]

So since all of the above, I'm drawing out that there are three different stages to train numbering for LNER/Eastern/North Eastern:

Tablet Numbers - dating back to at least 1931, specially issued numbers for special and excursion trains, it would seem that any train which was not in the WTT would be issued with one, with particular blocks of numbers being issued to principal stations; specials or excursions from these stations would be issued numbers from their own block.

Later it seems that principal and long distances services were also issued such numbers, such as the Scotch Goods being 266, indeed the first Deltic WTT had what appear to be such numbers issued http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt60-61.htm

Four Digit E/NE Region numbers - during the course of the 1950s it seems that workings other than special, excursion, principal express and long distance, also gained numbers. These are four digit but the first character is not related for the train classification, for instance in 1951 "1041" was a Class E freight from New England to Kings Cross East Goods Yard.

The system which survived in the background until Great Northern electrification appears to be this last system, as for instance I have a reference to 3030 being a passenger train, 0920 Kings Cross to Cambridge.

Any thoughts, corrections, clarification much appreciated!

[802220]

For the avoidance of doubt I'm interesting in any light anyone can cast on any of the LNER/NER/ER schemes mentioned above.

Many thanks for any and all information and leads!