Steam Loco Livery Changes Early to Late BR Emblems

[03piggs]

Hi all.

A rather random question, is there any record of when individual locos changed from the early to late BR emblems? or is it just a case that i need to find a photo of the loco in question at that date? (or just a 'best quess'?)

I'm trying to work this out for what individual locos would look like when they were based at Depots around the area I model.

Hope this makes sense and I get some responses.

Thanks in advance.

Stu

[rockinjohn]

Hi Stu think the first time I spied the later BR emblem would have been '57 & the former emblem on ex. works or new locos (9F&standard 4MT Tanks along with diesels) '55/'56?,the GWR could still turn up "their"own emblem or writing on (tenders or side tanks) on the odd occasion into the early'60's.hope this is of some use.jj

[Mickey]

Personally I always prefer the look of the 'later' B.R. emblem on steam and diesel locos that lasted through the whole of the 1960s including until the end of B.R. steam in 1968 and into the early 1970s on some diesel and electric locos and as for steam loco liveries in general I always liked the B.R. 'lined out black livery' for mixed traffic locos when you could actually see it on the loco especially when the loco was either ex-works or it was cleaned on Black 5s and the B.R. standard 5s but in general I prefer all black liveries for freight locos except for all ex-GWR Kings, Castles, Halls, Granges, Manors, Counties and 47xx locos and the ex-SR 'spam cans' and the 'Brits' all in B.R. 'Brunswick green' which suited all the aforementioned steam locos very well.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey &all, well I liked the old "large lion& wheel" the best &the British Railways "2nd" emblem which also came in Large and Small variants just ok ,now Steam loco liveries,I liked the Southern post nationalisation green(malchalite?),&the later London Midland maroon (it wasn't crimson lake)but I think the blue came off rather well on the KIngs &Merchant Navies,not that I ever saw a class member of these live in earlier times,but I do just remember an A1 or maybe A2 in this livery up close 2 on the buffers @ the "X"..... the "Street" pilots although carrying lined black, did appear in GER Blue @ the same time they painted the E4 for preservation,now the Diesels.... the Western's looked fab in Desert Sand or Maroon,think there was a Golden Ochre?I never saw, but they appeared non descript in Green to me,the Brush 2 in orange?loved it, I thought the blue(wishy washy) nothing special, alsoboth being "31B" didnt turn up in the smoke that often, but the class looked great in the Green(with grey stripe/ cream ok) & the classes that turned up in two- tone green looked very smart &businesslike, the blue that I know you favour Mickey with the yellow ends, I'll leave 'cause I know you have fond memories 'nuff said .jj

[Mickey]

Diesels.... the Western's looked fab in Desert Sand or Maroon,think there was a Golden Ochre?I never saw, but they appeared non descript in Green to me,the Brush 2 in orange?loved it, I thought the blue(wishy washy) nothing special, alsoboth being "31B" didnt turn up in the smoke that often, but the class looked great in the Green(with grey stripe/ cream ok) & the classes that turned up in two- tone green looked very smart &businesslike, the blue that I know you favour Mickey with the yellow ends, I'll leave 'cause I know you have fond memories 'nuff said .jj

The 'western diesel-hydraulics' the latter day class 52s (TOPS renumbering 1974-1977 withdrawn) I once heard referred to back at the end of the 1960s as "the multi-coloured westerns" although I don't know if many spotters referred to them by that name?.

Yeah jj I liked the British Rail 'corporate blue' livery although the Brush 2s looked really good in B.R. green even with full yellow front ends but conversely I hated how they looked during the later 1980s and early 1990s in that stupid orange/grey/black livery (was it Jaffa cake or Dutch livery?) they looked TERRIBLE! but yeah I liked the old class 31s in 'blue' livery.

With regards to the DELTICS (or class 55) I always preferred them in British Rail 'corporate blue' as opposed to the original two tone green and from memory I think they started to appear on the ECML in 'blue' around 1968-69?.

With regards to steam locos on B.R. I liked them in black which would be freight locos although as previously posted I liked the B.R. mixed traffic lined out black livery on steam locos as well which would include the B1s, Black 5s & B.R. standard 5s (probably freshly painted ex-works?).

[03piggs]

Thanks for the posts.

I was mainly talking about dates of when locos had their tender/tank emblem changes from early to late. I know these would of been at a works visit, but which ones.

eg- some J94s where allocated to Hornsey in late 1959/1960. Did these locos have early or late emblems on their tank sides?

This is the sort of info I'm trying to find out. The above is just one of the pices of information im trying to find out. I could just post them on here and see what happens???
Was there an official record of when it was applied or is it just a case of tracking down photos of the individual locos when they were based at (in this case) Hornsey?

Any help or pointing in the right direction would be helpful.

Stu

[rockinjohn]

Hi Stu,we assume that the J94's in particular even carried an "emblem"some photos have small "lion"shown on N.E. members, some class members shown with just the #68XXX on the side tanks,I know where your coming from & answered around the time in my previous post when they changed to/ from my memories,the only way would be to see a photo of "any"loco just ex. works overhaul with a date shown & possibly shed plate affixed,I wonder even if the works noted that info. which you seek.jj.( ps the liveries post was fun whilst it lasted.)

[Pyewipe Junction]

Thanks for the posts.

I was mainly talking about dates of when locos had their tender/tank emblem changes from early to late. I know these would of been at a works visit, but which ones.

eg- some J94s where allocated to Hornsey in late 1959/1960. Did these locos have early or late emblems on their tank sides?

This is the sort of info I'm trying to find out. The above is just one of the pices of information im trying to find out. I could just post them on here and see what happens???
Was there an official record of when it was applied or is it just a case of tracking down photos of the individual locos when they were based at (in this case) Hornsey?

Any help or pointing in the right direction would be helpful.

Stu

The second BR emblem (or crest) was introduced in 1956 and would have started to appear on new and ex-works locos from then on. As far as locos not immediately due for shopping were concerned, I think it is fair say that passenger and mixed-traffic locos were dealt with fairly quickly and most would have had the new emblem by 1958, even if they didn't have much working life left. I've seen photos of D16/3s smartly turned out with the new emblem on the tender, even though they were being rapidly withdrawn by 1958, but also ones of dirty D11/1s on summer passenger work in 1959 and 1960 still bearing the old emblem.

As far as freight and shunting locos were concerned, if they weren't due for shopping, then it would have been down to the attitude of and facilities available at individual sheds. I assume most sheds had staff available to do minor paintwork. The Hornsey J94s would have fallen into this category and my guess is that there would have been a mixture of both early and late emblems in 1959/60.

[Hatfield Shed]

...some J94s where allocated to Hornsey in late 1959/1960. Did these locos have early or late emblems on their tank sides?...

The two reasonable photos I have seen of J94 on Hornsey shed, what they had was filth on all surfaces. The one I can access is in David Percival's very useful book on the run down of KX area steam from 1958, showing 68073, nothing of number or BR totem visible in the photograph. The J50 nearest camera has no totem visible, next in line behind the J94 is a J50 clearly carrying the late totem.

I have read opinion that Hornsey's J94 allocation were not used, redundant when received due to the influx of diesel shunters.

[rockinjohn]

Hi, the only picture I have seen of a J94 in traffic in the area was of a transfer freight ex: Ferme Pk to KX Goods(all box vans)& a fair length train by the photo,a duty by this time performed usually by a J50 or a 350hp Shunter,as Hatfield mentioned other pics the locos were always on shed(34B) I tried sighting these locos many times but never witnessed them in the Area,being shed bound I assume & can believe they were redundant pretty much on arrival,& think were transferred to (30A)or sub sheds possible L.T.S.line use soon after receipt.jj

[strang steel]

Hi, the only picture I have seen of a J94 in traffic in the area was of a transfer freight ex: Ferme Pk to KX Goods(all box vans)& a fair length train by the photo,a duty by this time performed usually by a J50 or a 350hp Shunter,as Hatfield mentioned other pics the locos were always on shed(34B) I tried sighting these locos many times but never witnessed them in the Area,being shed bound I assume & can believe they were redundant pretty much on arrival,& think were transferred to (30A)or sub sheds possible L.T.S.line use soon after receipt.jj

Well, not quite.

Longworth shows that there were 5 - 68033. 68068, 68073, 68075 and 68077. The latter 4 all arrived circa January 1959 and stayed until June 1961. 68068 and 68075 went to Retford, 68073 moved to top shed, and 68077 went to Boston. 68033 appeared in December 1958, and moved to Colwick in February 1960.

[Mickey]

With regards to the early and late B.R. emblems I always thought and still think that the late B.R. emblem looked more pleasing to the eye and in fact I fancy having the late B.R. emblem emblazoned as a tattoo on my chest!.

[03piggs]

Hi.

Sorry havent had a chance to reply. Thanks all for the help with this, Ill cross check the numbers with shopping dates, so can get the 'best idea' of what emblem they would of had.

Hi, the only picture I have seen of a J94 in traffic in the area was of a transfer freight ex: Ferme Pk to KX Goods(all box vans)& a fair length train by the photo,a duty by this time performed usually by a J50 or a 350hp Shunter,as Hatfield mentioned other pics the locos were always on shed(34B) I tried sighting these locos many times but never witnessed them in the Area,being shed bound I assume & can believe they were redundant pretty much on arrival,& think were transferred to (30A)or sub sheds possible L.T.S.line use soon after receipt.jj

Well, not quite.

Longworth shows that there were 5 - 68033. 68068, 68073, 68075 and 68077. The latter 4 all arrived circa January 1959 and stayed until June 1961. 68068 and 68075 went to Retford, 68073 moved to top shed, and 68077 went to Boston. 68033 appeared in December 1958, and moved to Colwick in February 1960.

It is interesting, I've only seen 1 photo that was in D Brennan's book on the East London Railway vol 2. It showed an unidentified J94 on a Ferme Park freight heading towards the Docks. As my layout is based in the Lea Valley, I thought it might be a good excuse to include one or two. (also i had one that i needed to repaint from NCB blue!)

Stu

[rockinjohn]

Hi Stu the ones that got away J94 68009/68018 transferred to Stratford(30A)04/08/'62 gone by 31/10/'62 paper transfer/shed allocation or works scrapping?jj

[markindurham]

Apropos of nothing in particular, some locomotives never received the later "ferret & dartboard" emblem, despite surviving to the end of steam. One of the best known examples is the now preserved Fairburn 2-6-4T 42085, a NE loco all its life, withdrawn from Low Moor in 1967 when NE Region steam finished.

As the OP suggests, photographic evidence may be the definitive answer to individual locomotives.