Kings Cross 1932 Box & 232 Lever SGE Power Frame

[S&T]

I am researching information on the Kings Cross 1932 Signal Box 232 lever SGE miniature power lever frame as part of a project to construct a working scale replica of the frame. The model will be based on operations around 1970, just prior to abolishment and transfer of operations to the temporary IFS panel in the PSB.

After some months of studying the associated signal box diagram, I have a basic understanding of the complexity involved with the signalling operations and am now looking at an initial prototype build of the first panel section. However, my knowledge is limited in the following areas and I am hoping the experienced and knowledgeable members on here may be able to assist.

1. Information on the front section of the frame detailing the lever numbering and pull sequence (marked 'A' in the photo).
2. Information on the back section behind the levers (marked 'B' in the photo). I believe the point levers had a 'N' / 'R' illumination, but I am unsure of the signals (I understand there was no illumination showing ground & elevated disks or banner signal status?).
3. Information on acceptance and forwarding of movements from adjoining boxes. Was this done via standard block instruments and working with Kings Cross 'C' for the Met Line and G&M, Holloway South Down and Holloway South Up boxes? Any idea of instruments at each end of the frame etc (marked 'C' in the photo)
4. Route setting procedure - not being a signalman, I struggle in this area. I assume the points were set first for the route. Did the associated 'route lever' then get pulled and was it the route lever that held the route? Did the signals then get pulled off immediately? Perhaps someone could describe what was involved with lever selections for a typical movement in each direction (say UF to UR then to P1 and say P15 via D then DM1 to DS).

As always, any information would be much appreciated. If anyone is interested in the build of the working model going forwards, I would be happy to keep you posted on progress. When it is finally built and working....hopefully some of you might like to see it and actually operate it.

Thanks in advance
Steve

Attached Photo Credit and Copyright: StevieG

[Mickey]

3. Information on acceptance and forwarding of movements from adjoining boxes. Was this done via standard block instruments and working with Kings Cross 'C' for the Met Line and G&M, Holloway South Down and Holloway South Up boxes? Any idea of instruments at each end of the frame etc (marked 'C' in the photo)
As always, any information would be much appreciated. If anyone is interested in the build of the working model going forwards, I would be happy to keep you posted on progress. When it is finally built and working....hopefully some of you might like to see it and actually operate it.

Steve, StevieG who comes on the forum most weeks is the person who would know a lot if not all of the technical stuff regarding the 1932 box and also John thesignalman who also comes on here occasionally would also know a lot about the box because he was a telegraph lad at the box I believe around 1970 and John also runs the signalbox website.

With regards to acceptance of trains I have a feeling that on the Down fast and Down slow lines Holloway South Down had x2 'Acceptance levers' and it was TCB (Track Circuit Block) working between Kings Cross the 1932 box and the 1971 PSB and Holloway South Down box?. Even though I visited Holloway South Up in 1972 I can't honestly remember how the block working was in force at that time over both the Up fast and Up slow lines between Holloway South Up and Kings Cross 1971 PSB but I have a feeling that it was worked under Absolute block on conventional GN block instruments in Holloway South Up so I presume Kings Cross PSB had two B.R. standard 3-position block instruments and that it was fully track circuited on the Up fast and Up slow lines between Kings Cross PSB back through Gasworks tunnel, Belle Isle and Copenhagen tunnel back to Holloway South Up?. That is all an assumption on my part?. As I previously said both StevieG and John thesignalman are the two who would know lots of technical and other information about the 1932 Kings Cross box and it's working with the other boxes.

Also I think Goods And Mineral Junction also had an 'Acceptance lever' that it worked with both the 1932 Kings Cross box and the 1971 PSB over the Down South London goods line from the north end of Gasworks tunnel to Goods And Mineral Junction box but both StevieG and John would know for certain.

That is some undertaking Steve and I would guess that you are looking at maybe at least a 10 years project and maybe longer to replicate what is in the picture that you have posted above.

[S&T]

Also I think Goods And Mineral Junction also had an 'Acceptance lever' that it worked with both the 1932 Kings Cross box and the 1971 PSB over the Down South London goods line from the north end of Gasworks tunnel to Goods And Mineral Junction box but both StevieG and John would know for certain.

That is some undertaking Steve and I would guess that you are looking at maybe at least a 10 years project and maybe longer to replicate what is in the picture that you have posted above.

Thanks for taking the time to respond Mickey…..very much appreciated.

I believe that Goods and Mineral lever 36 was the acceptance lever for the KC Down Fast and Down Slow Starter signals. Not sure about Holloway South Up and Holloway South Down acceptance levers. I have a box diagram for G&M but not for the HSU and HSD boxes.

And yes…..a huge undertaking and I am planning best case five years….but more likely ten years. The frame will be built in sections as I would want to be able to transport it so ensure others can see it and use it where possible. First stage is a prototype build of the first 29 lever section (there being 8 sections of 29 levers in total in the end build)…..iron out any issues before going too far. Interlocking…..well, that’s a big ask due to the scaling size….but maybe some very basic level interlocking might be possible.

Thanks again Mickey
Steve

[Mickey]

With regards to acceptance of trains I have a feeling that on the Down fast and Down slow lines Holloway South Down had x2 'Acceptance levers' one lever for the Down fast line and one lever for the Down slow line from Kings Cross and I believe it was TCB (Track Circuit Block) working between Kings Cross the 1932 box and the 1971 PSB and Holloway South Down box?. Even though I visited Holloway South Up in 1972 I can't honestly remember how the block working was in force at that time over both the Up fast and Up slow lines between Holloway South Up and Kings Cross 1971 PSB but I have a feeling that it was worked under Absolute block on conventional 3-position GN block instruments in Holloway South Up so I presume Kings Cross PSB had two B.R. standard 3-position block instruments and that it was fully track circuited on the Up fast and Up slow lines between Kings Cross PSB back through Gasworks tunnel, Belle Isle and Copenhagen tunnel back to Holloway South Up?. That is all an assumption on my part?.

I just amended my original post above in regards to the 'assumed?' x2 individual 'acceptance levers' in Holloway South Down and the method of block working between Kings Cross 1932 box after both Belle Up (closed 1968) and Copenhagen Junction (closed 1967) and the 1971 Kings Cross PSB working with Holloway South Down over the Down lines and with Holloway Sout Up over the Up lines in 1970.

Also as previously posted by myself StevieG and John the signalman would know exactly what the method of block working was between both the 1932 and 1971 Kings Cross boxes and Holloway South Down and Holloway South Up boxes in 1970.

[S&T]

Thanks Mickey,
The attached pic shows some detail on the Holloway South Down acceptance levers. I believe the signals on the far right are KC172 on the Down Fast and KC179 on the Down Slow. They appeared to be locked via acceptance levers 3 and 28 in the HSD box. There is a further acceptance lever, number 38, in HSD which acts against a signal (not sure which one) on the Down Slow 2 (is this the Down South London Goods Line?).

So....with my limited understanding of the technicalities....would the process go something like this: KC172 and KC179 are locked by HSD acceptance levers 3 and 28 (not sure if the KC levers are physically locked or just electrically - I'm assuming the latter being a 'power' frame. After the basic AB interaction of offering and acceptance of a movement from KC to HSD, the signalman at HSD pulls the relevant acceptance lever which then enables the KC signalman to pull the previously locked signal off.

This leads me to....how does the KC signalman know that HSD has pulled the acceptance lever....is there some form of indication on the power frame for KC172 & 179? Or is it assumed that by moving the block instrument to line clear the signalman has also pulled the acceptance lever as part of that process?

I am searching the interweb for a box diagram for Holloway South Up...but no luck yet, so not sure on the acceptance levers there.

Thx
Steve

[StevieG]

( Duplicate post; deleted - (see below) .

[StevieG]

Thanks Mickey,
The attached pic shows some detail on the Holloway South Down acceptance levers. I believe the signals on the far right are KC172 on the Down Fast and KC179 on the Down Slow. They appeared to be locked via acceptance levers 3 and 28 in the HSD box. There is a further acceptance lever, number 38, in HSD which acts against a signal (not sure which one) on the Down Slow 2 (is this the Down South London Goods Line?).

So....with my limited understanding of the technicalities....would the process go something like this: KC172 and KC179 are locked by HSD acceptance levers 3 and 28 (not sure if the KC levers are physically locked or just electrically - I'm assuming the latter being a 'power' frame. After the basic AB interaction of offering and acceptance of a movement from KC to HSD, the signalman at HSD pulls the relevant acceptance lever which then enables the KC signalman to pull the previously locked signal off.

This leads me to....how does the KC signalman know that HSD has pulled the acceptance lever....is there some form of indication on the power frame for KC172 & 179? Or is it assumed that by moving the block instrument to line clear the signalman has also pulled the acceptance lever as part of that process?

I am searching the interweb for a box diagram for Holloway South Up...but no luck yet, so not sure on the acceptance levers there.

Thx
Steve

Will try to get back to you on a fair amount of all this S&T Steve, but not a good time generally for me at the moment. Feel free to post a reminder if you think you're waiting too long ; but no promises immediately.

P.S. The photo inside KX min. lever box appears to be mine, which was taken at approx. 02:50 on a c.1968/9 Sunday during a postal strike (so no vans or locos in the station, thus showing a very rare situation - all levers normal and not even one track circuit occupied on the diagram (hard to tell here).

[Mickey]

Thanks Mickey,
The attached pic shows some detail on the Holloway South Down acceptance levers. I believe the signals on the far right are KC172 on the Down Fast and KC179 on the Down Slow. They appeared to be locked via acceptance levers 3 and 28 in the HSD box. There is a further acceptance lever, number 38, in HSD which acts against a signal (not sure which one) on the Down Slow 2 (is this the Down South London Goods Line?).

So....with my limited understanding of the technicalities....would the process go something like this: KC172 and KC179 are locked by HSD acceptance levers 3 and 28 (not sure if the KC levers are physically locked or just electrically - I'm assuming the latter being a 'power' frame. After the basic AB interaction of offering and acceptance of a movement from KC to HSD, the signalman at HSD pulls the relevant acceptance lever which then enables the KC signalman to pull the previously locked signal off.

This leads me to....how does the KC signalman know that HSD has pulled the acceptance lever....is there some form of indication on the power frame for KC172 & 179? Or is it assumed that by moving the block instrument to line clear the signalman has also pulled the acceptance lever as part of that process?

I am searching the interweb for a box diagram for Holloway South Up...but no luck yet, so not sure on the acceptance levers there.

This is an assumption on my part even though I did visit Holloway South Up during 1972 but I can't remember much about that visit now 50 years on?.

With regards to Holloway South Up and running trains up to Kings Cross after Belle Isle Up box had closed in 1968 I believe the Up fast and Up slow lines from Holloway South Up to Kings Cross were worked under 'Absolute block' although I assume that it was fully track circuited on the Up fast and Up slow lines between Kings Cross and Holloway South Up boxes anyway I assume the signalman in Holloway South Up would just 'offer on' normally on the block bell a train to Kings Cross either on the Up fast or Up slow lines and once it was 'accepted' by Kings Cross the Kings Cross signalman would give the Holloway South Up signalman 'a release on the 'block instrument' (a line clear) on the block shelf at Holloway South Up so the signalman in 'South Up' could 'clear' either his Up fast line home or Up slow line home signals with both semaphore stop signals being carried on a x4 doll T-bracket post near to Holloway South Up box. I presume Holloway South Up would still give Kings Cross 'train entering section' when a train was passing Holloway South Up and heading towards Kings Cross?.
Really 'John the signalman' would know exactly how the 'block working' was instituted between both boxes seeing that John was once a telegraph lad in both Holloway South Up and Kings Cross 1932 boxes.

Below again is also an assumption on my part but this is quite likely how it was worked.

With regards to the Down lines between Kings Cross and Holloway South Down after Copenhagen Junction box was closed in 1967?. I believe both the Down fast line and the Down slow line were both worked under a 'modified' type of 'Track Circuit block' arrangement whereby the Kings Cross signalman would require a 'release' from the Holloway South Down signalman (via an acceptance lever being pulled in Holloway South Down box) before the Kings Cross signalman could 'clear' either his Down fast line or Down slow line colour light starting signals in Belle Isle but yeah you've got it Steve even without myself ever visiting either both the 1932 and 1971 Kings Cross boxes or Holloway South Down that's how it would work and as for 'how would the signalman a Kings Cross know when the Holloway South Down signaman had given him the release' on Kings Cross Down fast and Down slow line colour light starting signals at Belle Isle(?) I would most likely assume via a 'ON' or 'OFF' indication being provided in both the 1932 and 1971 Kings Cross box.

[S&T]

P.S. The photo inside KX min. lever box appears to be mine, which was taken at approx. 02:50 on a c.1968/9 Sunday during a postal strike (so no vans or locos in the station, thus showing a very rare situation - all levers normal and not even one track circuit occupied on the diagram (hard to tell here).

StevieG....please accept my sincere apologies for incorrectly crediting your photograph. I hope you will still allow the use. I have updated my original post to ensure your copyright is correctly attributed.

Thanks and regards
Steve

[S&T]

Will try to get back to you on a fair amount of all this S&T Steve, but not a good time generally for me at the moment. Feel free to post a reminder if you think you're waiting too long ; but no promises immediately.

StevieG, I think many members in this forum will agree with me that your technical and operational expertise in this (and many other) areas is exceptional and your contribution would be most welcomed by me on this project. However, this is most definitely a long term project and any involvement is purely when your time allows. Best regards,
Steve

[StevieG]

P.S. The photo inside KX min. lever box appears to be mine, which was taken at approx. 02:50 on a c.1968/9 Sunday during a postal strike (so no vans or locos in the station, thus showing a very rare situation - all levers normal and not even one track circuit occupied on the diagram (hard to tell here).

StevieG....please accept my sincere apologies for incorrectly crediting your photograph. I hope you will still allow the use. I have updated my original post to ensure your copyright is correctly attributed.

Thanks and regards
Steve

No problem S&T Steve, and thank you for such a profuse apology; appreciated. Please feel free to use the photo for your project.

My capturing of an image in the pictured situation - while the box was in use as opposed to one of pre-commissioning or post-closure - was probably unique.
Sodde's Law turned out to mean that my intent to return and take photos of it properly 'in action' - (when Regulator Alf Armitt was on, who was friendly to my unofficial visits), never happened.

I understand why you might have thought the photo to be one of the late Paul Hepworth's (I know he took at least one in the box, post-closure, but with its equipment looking reasonably intact).
Paul was York-based, and worked in the engineering of the Resignalling that went into the 'new' Kings Cross PSB (which itself closed last year, April 2021).
His interest and professional involvement seem to have prompted him to use his camera to take advantage of the resulting opportunities thus afforded him to capture images of the area's signalling in and from many places and viewpoints that were off limits to the public, including those from times of the many stageworks during transition from old to new, with some of those images of his showing signalling arrangements that were quite short-lived.
We are lucky to have seen those of his pictures which he posted and shared in some quarters in the last decade, although regrettably I've no idea what has happened to his collection - which must have been quite large - since his untimely passing.

[StevieG]

Will try to get back to you on a fair amount of all this S&T Steve, but not a good time generally for me at the moment. Feel free to post a reminder if you think you're waiting too long ; but no promises immediately.

StevieG, I think many members in this forum will agree with me that your technical and operational expertise in this (and many other) areas is exceptional and your contribution would be most welcomed by me on this project. However, this is most definitely a long term project and any involvement is purely when your time allows. Best regards,
Steve

Fair enough S&T Steve, and thanks for the (over-done!) flattery. Similar or superior expertise exists in abundance amongst these forums, but mostly (& rightly) not in LNER's (ex-GN) signalling.

My current limitations may well preclude my detailed input to your request before Christmas - hence the 'reminder' offer (which could easily be necessary for you) - but if things turn out well, my circumstances could have significantly improved in the New Year.

[Mickey]

Just a little aside with regards to the signalling at Kings Cross circa 1970. Beyond the individual platform colour light starting signals and sometime around 1970 or maybe either year before or after 1970 I can't remember which(?) but the 'roller blinds route indicators' on the two separate colour light signal heads that were mounted on a T-bracket signal post standing on the west side and opposite the 1932 box for trains departing and coming out of the old numbered platforms 6, 7, 8 & 10 on the stations west side had their 'roller blinds' changed from showing either M1 & M2 which was for the Down Main no.1 & Down Main no.2 line when a route and the signal was 'cleared' for a departing train heading towards the colour light signals on the Down Main no.1 or Down Main no.2 lines that stood at at the entrance to Gasworks tunnel (were) changed to showing either F1 & F2 which was for the Down Fast no.1 or Down Fast no.2 line.

On the stations east side and and beyond the individual platform colour light starting signals the above change also applied to the roller blinds route indicator' for the colour light signal and it's individual roller blinds route indicator for the trains departing and coming out of the old numbered platforms 1,2,4 & 5 on the stations east side of the 1932 box and heading towards Gasworks tunnel.

[S&T]

Mickey,
Indeed, your are correct about the platform renumbering and also change from M1/M2 to F1/F2. I believe this took place as part of the migration to IFS operation in the PSB in 1971.

As far as I can ascertain, the following routes in and out of Kings Cross could be worked:

UP WORKINGS:
Up Slow to Met Line & Platform 1 (and South Spur via GF)
Up Main to Platforms 1, 2, 4, 5
Up Relief to Platforms 1, 2, 4, 5 (via Left route), 5 (via Right route)
Up Relief via A to Platforms 6, 7, 8, 10
Up Relief via B to Platforms 6, 7, 8, 10
Up Relief via C to Platforms 8, 10, 11, 12, 13
Up Relief via D to Platforms 11, 12, 13, 14, 15
Up Relief via E to Platform 17 & Milk Yard

DOWN WORKINGS:
Platform 1, 2, 4, 5 to M1
Platform 6 & 7 to M1 or M2
Platform 8 via A, B or C to M1 or M2
Platform 10 via C to M1 or M2
Platform 11, 12 or 13 via C to M1 or M2 or via D to M1 or M2 or S
Platform 14 & 15 via D to M1 or M2 or S
Platform 16 (Dn Met Line) via D to M1 or M2 or S or via E to M1 or M2 or S
Platform 17 via E to M1 or M2 or S

Note: no Platform 3 or 9 in the pre 1971 configuration

[Mickey]

Obviously not directly relevant to your questions Steve but firstly the station platform renumbering took place in May 1972 I believe(?) and secondly as previously posted by myself on several other posts on here in the past with regards to the resignalling of Kings Cross in 1971 I was actually on the station alone with nobody else around by myself standing at the end of a deserted no.10 platform at 1:00am on the Sunday morning of the 'change over weekend' (that was at a time when I was young and nuts about railways!) when the old 1932 box was being decommissioned and the (new) 1971 PSB was simultaneously being commissioned over in the York Road area.

From a vague memory of over 50 years ago the last two main line departures to depart the terminus that Sunday morning in October 1971 under the signalling of the old 1932 box were the 1:00 am & 1:15 am departures both destined for Newcastle and departing the old numbered platforms no.8 & no.10 which were both subsequently renumbered platforms no.7 & no.8 in May 1972.

The interior lights of the old 1932 box burned bright that dark Sunday morning and when looking up at the old box from the end of the old no.10 platform S&T staff and there shadows could be seen moving around inside the box and blokes were also seen walking up the external box staircase and bringing back down S&T equipment from inside the old box while over in the York Road station direction the (new) Kings Cross PSB was also internally brightly lit and was also a hive of activity as well.

I actually rode on a train into Kings Cross on the same Sunday evening of the 'signalling change over weekend' arriving in the terminus sometime between 6:00-6:30 pm and I believe the train that I rode on may have been signalled 'normally' into the terminus as from memory the train had a 'straight run into the terminus' when passing Holloway South Up box so I am assuming that the new Kings Cross PSB had been fully commissioned some 16 or 17 hours after the old 1932 box had been decommissioned?. If that was the case and the new Kings Cross PSB had been fully commissioned then a signalling change over like that would possibly take 'a week to complete' in these times definitely since the Clapham accident back in 1988.