Scotch Goods

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey and all why I say that about the return of the loco in steam days was the presentation of the loco would have maybe been used on a prestige passenger working for its rtn south,early years saw our EE4class members (34B) replaced by( FP) & Brush type 4's mainly& the( only EE4's seen coming from (52A)even the York(50A) allocated uncommon), which I think in turn got replaced by later Brush type"Peaks"from their allocations, dont think I saw any of the Scottish EE4's in the GN London Area even though the had maybe 5/6 all my comments refer to the Early "Green Era" of Diesels.jj

[Mickey]

The English Electric type 4s also known to loco spotters of the late 1960s and early 1970s as 2000s were alright to ride on although the loco that was involved in the 'Great train robbery' of 1963 was suppose to have been an 'unlucky engine' amongst loco crews and may have been involved in an accident after the driver SPAD a red colour light auto signal at danger and then running into the rear of a stationary passenger train ahead of him on a dark night at Windsford on the London Midland Region in 1962(?) and it may have also been involved in another accident on the London Midland after running into a loose coupled goods train killing the guard in his brake van somewhere around the Birmingham area in the later 1960s I believe I read a few years ago.

With regards to the Scotch Goods in particular that thing always had a 'clear road' through 'Garden City' and wouldn't hang about tearing along the Down fast line towards Welwyn North!!!.

[rockinjohn]

Hi that EE type 4 was D326 & amongst your observations it actually moved off unmanned on Crewe(5A)MPD so adding even more history to it being a "jinxed"loco with some crews refusing to man it,I assume till things died down or it went to another LMR area were crews were unaware of its history.jj

[StevieG]

IIRC Mickey, the Down Scoth Goods's last 'headcode' / Reporting Number was 6S64 ? - Prior to which, before the late 1960s reclassification of trains in the Signalling Regs., it was 4S04; - I think

[Mickey]

Hi that EE type 4 was D326 & amongst your observations it actually moved off unmanned on Crewe(5A)MPD so adding even more history to it being a "jinxed"loco with some crews refusing to man it,I assume till things died down or it went to another LMR area were crews were unaware of its history.jj

I believe it was one of the earlier candidates of the class 40s to be scrapped either by coincident or design?. I think I read it was last seen in bits at Crewe around 1980 or even a year or two earlier?.

[Mickey]

IIRC Mickey, the Down Scoth Goods's last 'headcode' / Reporting Number was 6S64 ? - Prior to which, before the late 1960s reclassification of trains in the Signalling Regs., it was 4S04; - I think

Yeah you are correct Stevie 'the Scotch Goods' when it was diesel hauled during the late 1960s and early 1970s was 6S64 and it would usually appear tearing through Welwyn Garden City along the Down fast line anytime between 2:35 & 3:00 pm on a weekday afternoon with a class 40 on the front and a load of fully-fitted box vans behind the loco.

I remember Harry Fitzgerald a resident signalman at Welwyn Garden City during the late 1960s and early 1970s and who had started on the LNER during the mid-1930s and who had been at a number of GN boxes in the London area before and after WW2 and during the 1950s and 1960s including Holloway South Up, Finsbury Park no.4 & Wood Green no.1 saying to me one day as a 15-16 year old telegraph lad at the box regarding goods or freight trains in general to "Always give them a main line run cos they would ALWAYS get out of the way of a following express" also I remember him telling me "Don't ever clean the top window pains in a box" and also he WOULDN'T have any floor polish put down on the 'Garden City' box floor cos of slipping when 'working on the frame' cos one day I said to him shall I put some polish down (on the B.R. lino) and he said to me "If you put any polish down boy I'll throw a bucket of coal over the (box) floor!." So Welwyn Garden City box during the time Harry was at the box never had a polished floor ha ha ha...

[Hatfield Shed]

...With regards to the Scotch Goods in particular that thing always had a 'clear road' through 'Garden City' and wouldn't hang about tearing along the Down fast line towards Welwyn North!!!.

This applied when I was a schoolkid and this service had to have a class 8 steam loco as the 2,000hp diesels were relatively few. (Occasionally a V2, but I was too young to appreciate that this might have been a slightly lighter load that day.) Much as I enjoyed the fast passenger services, the fast freight was even more impressive, all of the visibly and audibly greater output from the loco, the racket from the long snaking train of mostly vans and conflats (none of that gliding by of coaches) and if you were really lucky a wagon sheet flogging wildly in the slipstream. (There's one question for a signalman; was there a stop and examine rule for this?)

But one fine summer day there wasn't a clear road for some reason, and the driver had to make what I now guess may have been a full brake application and stopped the train. While the noise was quite something, that was nothing new, it was the build up of the 'brownish' cloud of brake dust which became thicker toward the rear of the train. A sight seen just that once, and unforgettable. (My only other equally unusual steam days memory was a truly filthy 9F working up on slow mineral, that had received a shower bath from a fast train on Langley troughs. Ever seen a gloss brown 9F trailing 'clouds of glory'? I have been able to replicate that one in model form to some good effect.)

[rockinjohn]

Hi,seem to remember the "Scotch" thru times @ "the Park" varied, I would get there @ 1.45pm to witness it&could be early @ 2.15pm or even around 3pm+ maybe a case of the consist "ready to roll"so it got the road or maybe departure time altered over the years?,a "fast"freight ex. Camden bound for Scotland left around the same time frame, I think (34A) had a few V2's Ex. works with Dbl Chimney's for this &other "Express"freights, late steam early diesel(either could be turned out) the railway station staff would stop &watch it pass thru always called it the "Scotch" or "266"jj

[Mickey]

...With regards to the Scotch Goods in particular that thing always had a 'clear road' through 'Garden City' and wouldn't hang about tearing along the Down fast line towards Welwyn North!!!.

This applied when I was a schoolkid and this service had to have a class 8 steam loco as the 2,000hp diesels were relatively few. (Occasionally a V2, but I was too young to appreciate that this might have been a slightly lighter load that day.) Much as I enjoyed the fast passenger services, the fast freight was even more impressive, all of the visibly and audibly greater output from the loco, the racket from the long snaking train of mostly vans and conflats (none of that gliding by of coaches) and if you were really lucky a wagon sheet flogging wildly in the slipstream. (There's one question for a signalman; was there a stop and examine rule for this?)

You've asked about this before Hatfield Shed maybe a year ago and the short answer is YES if a goods train went passed a s/box and a wagon sheet wasn't tied down and was large sheet and was 'flapping about' I would send 7 bells (stop and examine) to the box in advance and get the thing stopped especially if it was occasionally 'failing the opposite line' and a potential hazard to on coming trains. Obviously once a signalman sends 7 bells to the box in advance he would go on the box phone and tell the bloke in the next box the reason why he had sent the 7 bells.

[Mickey]

Hi,seem to remember the "Scotch" thru times @ "the Park" varied, I would get there @ 1.45pm to witness it&could be early @ 2.15pm or even around 3pm+ maybe a case of the consist "ready to roll"so it got the road or maybe departure time altered over the years?,a "fast"freight ex. Camden bound for Scotland left around the same time frame, I think (34A) had a few V2's Ex. works with Dbl Chimney's for this &other "Express"freights, late steam early diesel(either could be turned out) the railway station staff would stop &watch it pass thru always called it the "Scotch" or "266"jj

I was in 'the Goods yard' one afternoon when I was a secondman near to Five Arch shunting cabin back in either 1974 or 75 when that thing The Scotch Goods departed (with a class 40 on the front end) and in it's self an uneventful event except when you wanted to get across the network of tracks at that spot to get the shunters lobby to take a leak and make a can of tea!!.

[Hatfield Shed]

...You've asked about this before Hatfield Shed maybe a year ago and the short answer is YES if a goods train went passed a s/box and a wagon sheet wasn't tied down and was large sheet and was 'flapping about' I would send 7 bells (stop and examine) to the box in advance and get the thing stopped especially if it was occasionally 'failing the opposite line' and a potential hazard to on coming trains. Obviously once a signalman sends 7 bells to the box in advance he would go on the box phone and tell the bloke in the next box the reason why he had sent the 7 bells.

I think I must have forgottern to go looking for the answer the first time, thanks for having the patience to answer again.

[Mickey]

...You've asked about this before Hatfield Shed maybe a year ago and the short answer is YES if a goods train went passed a s/box and a wagon sheet wasn't tied down and was large sheet and was 'flapping about' I would send 7 bells (stop and examine) to the box in advance and get the thing stopped especially if it was occasionally 'failing the opposite line' and a potential hazard to on coming trains. Obviously once a signalman sends 7 bells to the box in advance he would go on the box phone and tell the bloke in the next box the reason why he had sent the 7 bells.

I think I must have forgottern to go looking for the answer the first time, thanks for having the patience to answer again.

I thought about it again later the same day and on the GN in the London area where most of the 'one direction boxes' were to be found apart from a couple around the Doncaster area by the early 1970s I would say for an example if I was at Wood Green no.1 that signalled the Down lines only and a goods train passed by the box running along the Down fast line with a untied down large wagon sheet that was 'flying about' all over the place and it was potentially becoming a hazard to trains on the Up fast line I suppose after giving 'on line' (2 bells) to New Southgate (box) and then sending 7 bells the stop and examine also to the bloke at New Southgate I would probably phone both Wood Green Up Box no.4 and Wood Green Up Box no.2 that both worked the Up fast line through Wood Green but it would all have to be done fairly quickly to both the Wood Green boxes as well as telling the bloke at New Southgate box the reason why I had sent 7 bells in the first place for that goods on the Down fast line?.

[NZRedBaron]

Hope no one minds me 'de-Barrying' this thread.

But I got a model A4 recently, with an eye to getting a second one, to do turn and turn about on a representation of the Scotch, and other fast fitteds; And I got to wondering, what rolling stock (preferably available in RTR or plastic kits) would you likely see on it?

[jwealleans]

It was a fully fitted train limited to 40 wagons. What era are you modelling?

[NZRedBaron]

Pre-War, so LNER era; I've got a model of 'Falcon', and also of 'Green Arrow' and a bunch of A1's and A3's, and also got my eye on an Apple Green 'Golden Eagle', so that'd nail it down to around 1937-ish?