Can anyone tell me when the LNER introduced the No. 3 Express Goods head lamp code and classification?
I am guessing after 1934 but that is just a guess.
Regards
LNER No. 3 express goods
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Re: LNER No. 3 express goods
Hmmm
Further checking shows this old thread from Rmweb where AndyRush suggests 1926-1931.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... on/page/2/
However I can find no evidence in WTTs or in block bell codes to the end of 1938 that I have seen. Nor any evidence in any WTT reproduced in Goslin’s book for the LNER to 1939. Photos in Goslin’s book are all of No.3 Express Goods running in BR days. The 1947 General appendix is the only place I have identified as including the definition and head code changes.
I am beginning to suspect they were a wartime development or possibly introduced postwar but just before nationalisation. My sources are somewhat limited so perhaps other people have a reference in a contemporary late 1930s LNER WTT or block working set of bell codes they could check?
Regards
Further checking shows this old thread from Rmweb where AndyRush suggests 1926-1931.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... on/page/2/
However I can find no evidence in WTTs or in block bell codes to the end of 1938 that I have seen. Nor any evidence in any WTT reproduced in Goslin’s book for the LNER to 1939. Photos in Goslin’s book are all of No.3 Express Goods running in BR days. The 1947 General appendix is the only place I have identified as including the definition and head code changes.
I am beginning to suspect they were a wartime development or possibly introduced postwar but just before nationalisation. My sources are somewhat limited so perhaps other people have a reference in a contemporary late 1930s LNER WTT or block working set of bell codes they could check?
Regards
Re: LNER No. 3 express goods
This seems confirmed. The 1942 GE section head codes are the same with pre-war, that is there no No.3 express Good train.
In addition Peter Tatlow mentions them in his new book The L&NER Delivers the Goods Vol. 1
“[C]ontinuing commercial pressure led Gresley, during late 1938 or early 1939, to agree to an experiment on the Eastern section running No.2 braked goods trains at an average speed of 40mph subject to… Following World War Two this led to the introduction of No.3 Express Goods train.”
Oddly Tatlow provides a copy of what appear to be the 1947 head codes from the General Appendix including the No.3. Express Goods Trains but with the caption “Engine head lamp codes for the L&NER from the late 1930s.”
Does any of this matter? Not really, I just wanted my mock up WTT for my model railway to be correct.
Regards
In addition Peter Tatlow mentions them in his new book The L&NER Delivers the Goods Vol. 1
“[C]ontinuing commercial pressure led Gresley, during late 1938 or early 1939, to agree to an experiment on the Eastern section running No.2 braked goods trains at an average speed of 40mph subject to… Following World War Two this led to the introduction of No.3 Express Goods train.”
Oddly Tatlow provides a copy of what appear to be the 1947 head codes from the General Appendix including the No.3. Express Goods Trains but with the caption “Engine head lamp codes for the L&NER from the late 1930s.”
Does any of this matter? Not really, I just wanted my mock up WTT for my model railway to be correct.
Regards
Re: LNER No. 3 express goods
I have looked at the Table of Running Times at the back of several wartime and later LNER WTTs.
There are only 2 classifications of Braked Goods in the WTTs up to and including the May to October 1946 Main Line issue.
The late General Appendix issued in 1947 shows No.1, No.2 and No.3 Braked Goods classes, in both the Southern Area and NE Area issues.
However, the last Main Line KX to Doncaster WTT issue for October 1947, shows something slightly different in the Table of Running Times:
No. 1 Braked Goods, No. Plus 2 Braked Goods and No. 2 Braked Goods, so three classifications, but shown as an extra No.2 type.
I do not have access to Winter 1946-7 or Summer 1947 WTTs so I cannot be sure exactly when the third classification came in.
John
There are only 2 classifications of Braked Goods in the WTTs up to and including the May to October 1946 Main Line issue.
The late General Appendix issued in 1947 shows No.1, No.2 and No.3 Braked Goods classes, in both the Southern Area and NE Area issues.
However, the last Main Line KX to Doncaster WTT issue for October 1947, shows something slightly different in the Table of Running Times:
No. 1 Braked Goods, No. Plus 2 Braked Goods and No. 2 Braked Goods, so three classifications, but shown as an extra No.2 type.
I do not have access to Winter 1946-7 or Summer 1947 WTTs so I cannot be sure exactly when the third classification came in.
John
Re: LNER No. 3 express goods
Thanks John,
That is consistent with what I have seen: only cracks a mention in the final LNER General appendix.
Could you attach an image of the header from the October 1947 KX WTT showing the “ No. 1 Braked Goods, No. Plus 2 Braked Goods and No. 2 Braked Goods,”?
Regards
That is consistent with what I have seen: only cracks a mention in the final LNER General appendix.
Could you attach an image of the header from the October 1947 KX WTT showing the “ No. 1 Braked Goods, No. Plus 2 Braked Goods and No. 2 Braked Goods,”?
Regards
Re: LNER No. 3 express goods
Here is an image of the first page of the Table of Running Times. Section A WTT Main Line King's Cross and Doncaster, 6th October 1947 ufn
I have found a Document from Summer 1947 which shows '+2' Braked Goods, it is an Eastern Section summary of trains between Westerfield and Ipswich, however the Nottingham District WTT for the same time period only has 2 classifications.
John
John
Re: LNER No. 3 express goods
Thanks John,
Very interesting. That seems to go with a faster No.2 Braked express goods, but nothing hinting at No.3 braked or unbraked express goods.
The difference in head-codes is that in 1931 codes 4 (No.2 Express Goods) and 5 (ECS) share the same 12 positions, whilst in 1947 code 4 includes Both No.2 Express Goods and ECS, and code 5 with new position 34 has become No.3 express Goods (which can be braked or unbraked at the same speed).
But as you say, no hint in the WTT.
Regards
Very interesting. That seems to go with a faster No.2 Braked express goods, but nothing hinting at No.3 braked or unbraked express goods.
The difference in head-codes is that in 1931 codes 4 (No.2 Express Goods) and 5 (ECS) share the same 12 positions, whilst in 1947 code 4 includes Both No.2 Express Goods and ECS, and code 5 with new position 34 has become No.3 express Goods (which can be braked or unbraked at the same speed).
But as you say, no hint in the WTT.
Regards