Goods loop

[silverfox]

Mickey and any other signalmen on here

What is the official definition of a goods loop as opposed to a goods line

We have person who says that a line that departs the main and then joins the main again and is under the control of two signal boxes is not a loop but a line it has to be under the control of one box in order to be it a loop

Confused of Bracknell

[PinzaC55]

It may differ from railway company to company. From memory at Northallerton you had the Cordio Loop and Longlands loop both of which had ends controlled by different boxes. The NER seems to have generally preferred the word "Independent" and I once bought a nice block instrument brass plated "Up Independent" which I decided must have came from Kirkby Stephen East which had Up and Down Passenger, Independent and Mineral lines.

[Mickey]

Mickey and any other signalmen on here

What is the official definition of a goods loop as opposed to a goods line?

We have a person who says that a line that departs the main and then joins the main again and is under the control of two signal boxes is not a loop but a line it has to be under the control of one box to be it a loop

Ron a 'Goods Loop' (or a Passenger Loop?) is a line that is under the control of one signal box with the said signal box controlling the entrance points and exit points from the goods loop. I have a 'goods loop' where I am it is 1.000 feet long because my box controls the entrance and exit points to a 'goods loop' although come to think of it on a large area controlled by a single power box which also controls the entrance points and exit points that may be several miles apart from each other would that still be classed as a 'goods loop' or a 'goods line'(?) to be honest I have never given it any thought before(?) I presume It may well be clarified in the Sectional Appendix as to what that line is called?.

Pinza makes a relevant point because some railwaymen of old might have referred to a goods line between two signal boxes as a goods loop even though it wasn't strictly a goods loop but a goods line between both signal boxes.

[PinzaC55]

Mickey and any other signalmen on here

What is the official definition of a goods loop as opposed to a goods line?

We have a person who says that a line that departs the main and then joins the main again and is under the control of two signal boxes is not a loop but a line it has to be under the control of one box to be it a loop

Ron a 'Goods Loop' (or a Passenger Loop?) is a line that is under the control of one signal box with the said signal box controlling the entrance points and exit points from the goods loop. I have a 'goods loop' where I am it is 1.000 feet long because my box controls the entrance and exit points to a 'goods loop' although come to think of it on a large area controlled by a single power box which also controls the entrance points and exit points that may be several miles apart from each other would that still be classed as a 'goods loop' or a 'goods line'(?) to be honest I have never given it any thought before(?) I presume It may well be clarified in the Sectional Appendix as to what that line is called?.

Pinza makes a relevant point because some railwaymen of old might have referred to a goods line between two signal boxes as a goods loop even though it wasn't strictly a goods loop but a goods line between both signal boxes.

The NER also referred to signalboxes as Signal Cabins and there was only - as far as I know - one cabin with the surname "Box" , at Platform Box in York.
And on the NER there were no Viaducts, only Bridges.

[Mickey]

The NER also referred to signalboxes as Signal Cabins and there was only - as far as I know - one cabin with the surname "Box" , at Platform Box in York.
And on the NER there were no Viaducts, only Bridges.

I never knew too much about NER signalling, to be honest, so I wasn't aware that their signal boxes were referred to more commonly as 'signal cabins' although I knew that name was called by various railwaymen and railway companies during the earlier years of the railways maybe circa the 1860s-1870s after which I thought they were more commonly referred to as signal boxes?.

With regards to 'goods loops' and goods lines worked under permissive block regulations (permissive working or permissive block working between two signal boxes as opposed to Absolute block working allowed more than one train in a goods loop or goods line in a block section between two signal boxes at any one time) permissive working was/is suspended until either the fog has sufficiently lifted or the snow has stopped falling or has thinned out so the signalman would have to use his/her common sense on that one?. If the signalman can see that the fog has lifted and it is only misty instead of dense fog and maybe a couple of hundred yards can be seen along the goods loop or goods line or a previously heavy fall of snow has become a lot less or just a few flakes of snow falling I would personally reinstate permissive (block) working over a goods loop or goods line after informing any other signalman involved at the next box along on a goods line that 'we' can go back to permissive working.

With regards to NER signals in general I have sometimes wondered how the NE 'got away' with still using 'slotted post' signals well into the 1960s after the Abbotts Ripton crash of 1876 which saw the invention by Edward French a Hitchin signalling D.I. (or signal fitter it is also claimed?) of the GNR somersault signal previous to which the GNR also had slotted post signals.

[silverfox]

Mickey

thanks much appreciated

One wicked thought. with the advent on centralised signalling would all 'goods lines' now be 'goods loop' as one signalling cenrte controls both entrance and exit?....i'll get me coat!

[PinzaC55]

The NER also referred to signalboxes as Signal Cabins and there was only - as far as I know - one cabin with the surname "Box" , at Platform Box in York.
And on the NER there were no Viaducts, only Bridges.

I never knew too much about NER signalling, to be honest, so I wasn't aware that their signal boxes were referred to more commonly as 'signal cabins' although I knew that name was called by various railwaymen and railway companies during the earlier years of the railways maybe circa the 1860s-1870s after which I thought they were more commonly referred to as signal boxes?.

With regards to 'goods loops' and goods lines worked under permissive block regulations (permissive working or permissive block working between two signal boxes as opposed to Absolute block working allowed more than one train in a goods loop or goods line in a block section between two signal boxes at any one time) permissive working was/is suspended until either the fog has sufficiently lifted or the snow has stopped falling or has thinned out so the signalman would have to use his/her common sense on that one?. If the signalman can see that the fog has lifted and it is only misty instead of dense fog and maybe a couple of hundred yards can be seen along the goods loop or goods line or a previously heavy fall of snow has become a lot less or just a few flakes of snow falling I would personally reinstate permissive (block) working over a goods loop or goods line after informing any other signalman involved at the next box along on a goods line that 'we' can go back to permissive working.

With regards to NER signals in general I have sometimes wondered how the NE 'got away' with still using 'slotted post' signals well into the 1960s after the Abbotts Ripton crash of 1876 which saw the invention by Edward French a Hitchin signalling D.I. (or signal fitter it is also claimed?) of the GNR somersault signal previous to which the GNR also had slotted post signals.

As far as I know the Abbots Ripton signals were able to go fully down into the slot which is why they froze but the NER signals could only go down to 45 degrees and therefore the chances of being frozen were far less. If you imagine the arm as a big heavy lever it exerted a huge torque on the pivot which held both it and the spectacle plate.

[Mickey]

As far as I know the Abbots Ripton signals were able to go fully down into the slot which is why they froze but the NER signals could only go down to 45 degrees and therefore the chances of being frozen were far less. If you imagine the arm as a big heavy lever it exerted a huge torque on the pivot which held both it and the spectacle plate.

Yeah that's a point Pinza I never thought of that the GNR 'slotted post semaphore signals' before the somerault signal was invebted by Edward French after the 1876 Abbotts Ripton crash had the 'all clear' indication with the signal arm basically 'disappearing into the signal post' with the corresponding signal lamp on the same signal post showing the same indication either red for stop when the arm was horizontal or white for all clear I believe?.

[Mickey]

One wicked thought. with the advent on centralised signalling would all 'goods lines' now be 'goods loop' as one signalling cenrte controls both entrance and exit?....i'll get me coat!

Ron maybe I have it wrong although as I said I never thought about it before but possibly 'technically speaking' if a power box or signalling center as they are usually called these days has a 'goods line' that ran for example 5 miles parallel to another running line running in the same direction with the signalling center controlling both the entrance and exit points to that goods line would that technically be classed as a 'goods loop' or just a goods line?. As I previously said it may be clarified in the sectional appendix as to what that goods line is?. John the sgnalman may well know?.

[PinzaC55]

As far as I know the Abbots Ripton signals were able to go fully down into the slot which is why they froze but the NER signals could only go down to 45 degrees and therefore the chances of being frozen were far less. If you imagine the arm as a big heavy lever it exerted a huge torque on the pivot which held both it and the spectacle plate.

Yeah that's a point Pinza I never thought of that the GNR 'slotted post semaphore signals' before the somerault signal was invebted by Edward French after the 1876 Abbotts Ripton crash had the 'all clear' indication with the signal arm basically 'disappearing into the signal post' with the corresponding signal lamp on the same signal post showing the same indication either red for stop when the arm was horizontal or white for all clear I believe?.

I know we are getting off topic but many years ago I read a lot of the Railway Inspectorate signalling reports in the Public Record Office at Kew and one of them was for the Hexham & Allendale Railway in about 1865 by Major Donop the Inspector. He was very scathing about this remote branch line and said it was absurd to have working distant signals on a low speed branch with 4 trains a day which stopped at all stations and insisted that they all be "fixed" at caution.
It was a convention on the NER to have the spectacle plate fixed lower than the arm on tall signals but about the time of the Abbotts Ripton disaster this was changed and they looked more conventional after that.

[Mickey]

It was a convention on the NER to have the spectacle plate fixed lower than the arm on tall signals but about the time of the Abbotts Ripton disaster this was changed and they looked more conventional after that.

The samething was the same on the GNR as well regarding the spectacle glass being mounted lower down the post from the corresponding signal arm.

Getting back to 'goods loops' the infamous QUINTINSHILL box on The Caledonian Railway had two goods loops one on the Up and one on the Down although having said that hundreds maybe a few thousand goods loops probably existed around Britan at one time.

Inside Quintinshill box possibly in 1971 2 years before closure showing the Up and Down goods loops on the track diagram- https://www.devilsporridge.org.uk/wp-co ... 24x711.jpg

[silverfox]

Mickey

Whether a goods loop or goods line all the footplate lads say they were'looped' They have no time for niceties lol

[Mickey]

Whether a goods loop or goods line all the footplate lads say they were'looped' They have no time for niceties lol

It's funny Ron but I did notice maybe between the 1990s & 2010s quite a few freight train drivers in particular would stop at a red signal with a 'sub route' leading into a goods loop and when the 'sub route' was cleared for the goods loop they would query why are they being looped?. I would then have to tell them the reason why I was putting them in the goods loop but I would always think to myself JUST TAKE THE SIGNAL DRIVER!. Some drivers still ask why they are being 'looped' (signalled into a goods loop) but in the past couple of years with a influx of new drivers joining TOCs 'off the street' with no background of railways those drivers will just 'take the signal' into a goods loop and don't query why are they being looped?.

Drivers will or would ask why are they being looped because they don't want to be left sitting in a goods loop for several hours I understand that but I don't want them sitting at my signals either usually the control have told me to put a certain train into a goods loop for any numbers of reasons such as they may not have drivers relief for that driver further along the line or a goods yard maybe congested further along that trains route or they may have a failed train further along the route of that train any number of reasons so the control will ring up and say to me "Put that train into the goods loop we'll let you know when to let it go." In the past when a driver was 'getting a bit stroppy' I would just say "Driver I'll give you the controls number and you can sort it out with them ok?."