A1/A3 horse names

[52A]

I like the story of Robert The Devil being allocated to work a special conveying clergymen to a conference! Forget where I read about it though.

[stembok]

52A: The story about the provision of A1 4479 'Robert the Devil' for a special train conveying delegates to a Methodist Conference, and of their reportedly being scandalised by this choice, was related by Cecil J Allen in 'British Pacific Locomotives'. It also receives mention in the book 'Nigel Gresley, Locomotive Engineer' by F.A.S. Brown.
There was also a report of a deliberate/accidental? but politically inappropriate choice of a Royal Scot locomotive -may have been 'Royal Ulster Rifleman' - to bring an Irish Republican Delegation to London from Liverpool or Holyhead for a conference, pre -war.

[giner]

LOL! They're great stories!

Not strictly A1/A3 related, but wasn't there an occasion when "Sunderland" was put on to work a trainload of Newcastle United fans up for the cup?

[hq1hitchin]

Ha ha - bet they got hot under the dog collars! In relatively recent times, two of the Class 87 a.c. electric locomotives were not supposed to be used on the Royal Train, 'Wolf of Badenoch' and 'The Black Prince' because, I think, those characters were both no good boyos.

[52D]

See post on unlucky locos. I imagine Merry Hampton got sick every time she went North of Newcastle. The story about Sunderland is slightly askew, When Sunderland AFC reached the F.A. Cup final in 1937 the loco was actually in the works so the LNER temporarilly renamed Derby County as Sunderland to haul an excursion from Newcastle to London.

[giner]

Thanks for the clarification there 52D. Could've been worse, I suppose - like putting "Arsenal" on a Tottenham outing. I don't suppose anyone would have dared to try that on.

[Captain Cuttle]

I prefer 2745 `Captain Cuttle` and that`s what I have named my first A3 from Farish. I have others now, 2564 `Knight of the Thistle`, very controversial, and 2565`Merry Hampton`, also open to being misunderstood.

TonyM

It had to be renamed 'Knight of Thistle' due to objections.

It would have been a nice touch to name 'Tornado' something like "Nijinsky" the last Triple Crown winner (2000gns, Derby, St Leger) or the greatest of them all "Eclipse", considered to be the father of the Thoroughbred.

"Rock Sand" should have been used as he was another Triple Crown winner.

"Blink Bonny" is a great name. I didn't know about the farm near Flodden. Blink Bonny's trainer was a Scot and she was a great racehorse, and dam. It has to be remembered that horseracing perhaps had a wider appeal in the 20s and 30s as horses were an every day part of life. So, most people would know about the horses engines were named after, and many were real favourites, like Brown Jack, a legend, although from earlier times.

So naming after racehorses was truly an inspired choice.

[Bullhead]

It would have been a nice touch to name 'Tornado' something like "Nijinsky" the last Triple Crown winner (2000gns, Derby, St Leger) or the greatest of them all "Eclipse", considered to be the father of the Thoroughbred.

I warmly agree. The name "Tornado" has no particular link with any LNER naming tradition that I can think of, as well as being associated with a machine whose purpose (despite its undoubted glamour) is to kill and destroy. "Eclipse", however, would not only perpetuate the racehorse tradition but the word's literal meaning - something surpassing or outshining its neighbours - would surely be very appropriate to this beautiful new locomotive.

[hq1hitchin]

It would have been a nice touch to name 'Tornado' something like "Nijinsky" the last Triple Crown winner (2000gns, Derby, St Leger) or the greatest of them all "Eclipse", considered to be the father of the Thoroughbred.

I warmly agree. The name "Tornado" has no particular link with any LNER naming tradition that I can think of, as well as being associated with a machine whose purpose (despite its undoubted glamour) is to kill and destroy. "Eclipse", however, would not only perpetuate the racehorse tradition but the word's literal meaning - something surpassing or outshining its neighbours - would surely be very appropriate to this beautiful new locomotive.

and hasn't there already been a Pacific named 'Tornado' - Britannia 70022? Mind you, no reason at all why 60163 cannot have it's name changed as often as you like, subject to money being available for the manufacture of the nameplates - is there? and why stop at racehorse names, what about railway directors so how about naming it after the outgoing chairman of Network Rail - let's hear it for Sir Ian McAllister!! lol

[61070]

I too have always thought that the naming by the LNER of its express locomotives after racehorses was an inspired choice. There is the obvious visual correlation between lofty race horse and large-wheeled locomotive, especially when in motion, not forgetting also the driver/jockey relationship. As has been said already, the names symbolised acceleration, speed etc., and they were familiar to working people who followed racing form, but they also curried favour with the racehorse-owning aristocracy, who might either be represented on the railway company's board or who might have been thought to be 'of influence in the right circles'.

A further point of interest is that, because this policy was followed through from the 1920s to the 1960s, individual locomotives in each generation were often 'related' through the names they bore. For example, the grandsire of St Paddy (Deltic D9001) was Hyperion (A3 60037), while his (St Paddy's) damsire was Bois Roussel (A1 60117). In Hyperion's bloodline were Gainsborough, Bayardo, St Frusquin, St Simon, Minoru, Galopin, Doncaster and Hermit! This info is easily available on the website www.pedigreequery.com , again as mentioned earlier. You just put your favourite A3 or A1 racehorse name in the box at top left and click 'Horse Search'.

[Captain Cuttle]

and why stop at racehorse names, what about railway directors so how about naming it after the outgoing chairman of Network Rail - let's hear it for Sir Ian McAllister!! lol

The Scots have enough preserved engines named after them. Duchesses of Sutherland and Hamilton, Royal Scot, Scots Guardsman and of course Flying Scotsman.
I thought the transfer of the Scottish names from scrapped C class to Peppercorn pacifics was unimaginitive.

[Captain Cuttle]

In Hyperion's bloodline were Gainsborough, Bayardo, St Frusquin, St Simon, Minoru, Galopin, Doncaster and Hermit! This info is easily available on the website http://www.pedigreequery.com , again as mentioned earlier. You just put your favourite A3 or A1 racehorse name in the box at top left and click 'Horse Search'.

I find it incredible 'Doncaster' was not preserved. The Duchess 'City of Birmingham' was gifted to Birmingham, and Doncaster should have been given to its town of origin.

The St Leger is also run at Doncaster and is the oldest Classic race in the world. That loco preserved and on display in Doncaster would have been a nice touch.

[stembok]

BR at the top table in the early 1960s took a very hard nosed attitude towards steam. They could not be rid of it and its connotations quickly enough. So it's no surprise that famous engines were just allowed to go to the scrapyard. Remember there was no A3 on the official preservation list and it is only through Alan Pegler and his connections that we have 4472.Similarly, Bill Harvey, Norwich shedmaster, by a policy of obfuscation managed to prolong 61572's life long enough for it to be preserved. In December 1962 the first five A4s were withdrawn among them 60014 Silver Link, a worthy candidate for preservation. Four of the five were cut up quite quickly at Doncaster, but 60014 hung on for some six or seven months and there were reports - sadly not fulfilled - that it was hoped a buyer might be found. There were rumours of Billy Butlin who bought several ex LMS engines for display at his holiday camps buying her. Later it even touched the hearts of some of the scrapmen and Albert Draper of Hull after cutting up hundreds of steam locos donated 45305, one of the last, for preservation. Incidentally, the only reason 46235 was 'given' to Birmingham was because there was a Duchess on the official preservation list and Birmingham was able to provide a home for her.
The authorities in Britain have often had a very ambivalent attitude in respect of historical artefacts, eg famous naval vessels allowed to go for scrap, whereas in America they were often presented, or at least offered, to their own cities or states. HMS Vanguard ,the last British battleship went for scrap in 1960 and HMS Belfast the last of the traditional WW2 heavy cruisers is reportedly only preserved because of a very large private individual donation . Or the desecration of the original Euston and even worse the 1960s plan to tear down St. Pancras. The QE2 off to the Middle East or the original Queen Mary to California when Clydeside or Southampton was their spiritual home. Thank heavens for the private preservation movement!

[silver fox]

[quote="stembok"]
In December 1962 the first five A4s were withdrawn among them 60014 Silver Link, a worthy candidate for preservation. Four of the five were cut up quite quickly at Doncaster, but 60014 hung on for some six or seven months and there were reports - sadly not fulfilled - that it was hoped a buyer might be found. quote]


[Gavin Morrison] after 4 months

[61070]

I find it incredible 'Doncaster' was not preserved. The Duchess 'City of Birmingham' was gifted to Birmingham, and Doncaster should have been given to its town of origin.

The St Leger is also run at Doncaster and is the oldest Classic race in the world. That loco preserved and on display in Doncaster would have been a nice touch.

Here's probably one of the last pictures of 60048 Doncaster before that final trip to the knacker's yard. Photo taken by my father at Grantham on 5th Sept 1963, 4 days before her withdrawal on closure of the shed. Still a proud old thoroughbred.