GNR loco lamp colour

[Tim Watson]

What colour GNR loco lamps?

Tim

[jwealleans]

Red, as far as I recall.

[majormagna]

I was always under the impression they were red up to some point in the 1890s or 1900s, then black, then white lamps started to appear from about 1920-ish, though I may be wrong.

[Atlantic 3279]

Browsing monochrome photographs has given me the impression that not all GNR loco lamps were the same shape and that they were not always the same colour. Although this topic has been dormant for almost two years, I wonder if anybody now knows the official details please?

What I've seen so far suggests mainly square-bodied lamps in the nineteenth century, in some sort of colour that looks not at all like white and is probably not dark enough to be black, maybe brown, green or red? Towards, and after the turn of the century there seem to be some square bodies in a very light colour, maybe white, as well as some cylindrical bodies in a not white, not black tone. It is hard to know what to put on a model.

Clarification would be very interesting, if others can help.

[swhite01]

Evening Graeme,
A few years back a small group of GNRS member's were looking at Loco Lamps for a similar reason to you, to decorate some 4mm CAD printed loco bodies that were being developed. Unfortunately I haven't been able to locate my notes but during the course of our investigation it was apparent that there were no official records known at that time re size colouring etc. I had looked through the drawing files at York and also reviewed the available files at Kew. The GNR Sectional appendix for 1905 and 1912 carry's only the standard layout of lamps per service without discussing the lamps themselves.
From viewing the various photos that I have access to, the "square bodied" lamp appears to have come into service in the 1870's, with the "cylindrical" bodied lamps possibly c 1908 ( there is an official photo of a J21 with that lamp type. Also, there was a "Cylindrical" body lamp of a 2nd type - Pie Crust... in an Auction with a stamped date of 3/1907 .. a Hatfield lamp.

I have attached some photos of the different types and two photos of the GNR Square lamp in the Science Museum collection !

I hope the attcahed will be of some help.
Steve
www.gnrsociety.com

[Atlantic 3279]

Excellent additional information Steve, thank you very much. Your later introduction date for the cylindrical lamp doesn't surprise me, as my "turn of the century" estimate arose from either believing caption dates for photographs, or estimating the date from other features when no date was given.

It would seem that for a class of loco that disappeared completely by 1906, a square bodies lamp is the safest choice, but absolute certainty about the proper colour is another matter...

[john coffin]

somewhat late to the party, however, I have reviewed all the colour postcards of GNR locos in my collection,

and apart from one picture of 1421 which is not in traffic but shows two white ones,
all the lamps are black, even the very early ones on a Sturrock converted Cubitt 2-2-2T/ Sharpie
which are large, are also black.

HTH

Paul

[Atlantic 3279]

Black seems on the one hand a less "misleading" colour to paint the front lamps than red, given that red was used as a "stop" indication on signal arms, signal lamps, tail lamps etc. On the other hand if the lamps are supposed to be seen by the signalman not only when glowing in darkness, but also in daytime when their light output (if any) might barely show in the daylight, then black bodies don't seem to be the best way to make them visible. I don't mean that I disbelieve the black body of course. I can imagine that it was simply seen as the signalman's duty to see the lamps, regardless of any difficulty.

[john coffin]

Don't forget that each and every signal man was trained to check the headlamp code carried by each loco,
and thus would be looking for a different shape where the lamp iron stands were.

If he expected an express passenger train, then he would look at the top of the smokebox,
plus what ever else might be on the footplate,

The only reason the lamp colour would make any difference is when an unusual train was seen in section,
but on that occasion there would almost certainly be a difference notice which would have been sent
to the various signal boxes along that specific route.

I am sure some of the ex signal men on the forum could explain more fully how they distinguished
the lamps themselves during the day?

Paul

[Tim Watson]

Interesting to see this re-visited. I can’t add any knowledgeable comments to this thread other than to note that red lamps could look quite black with the emulsion colour sensitivity of the time.

Tim

[Mickey]

One of the signalmen at Welwyn in the early 1970s who had started off in the box as a telegraph lad on the LNER during the 1930s before becoming a signalman himself sometmes referred to express passenger train head lamps/head lights the two lamps on either side of the of the locos front end and showing a white light during the hours of darkness as 'open head lamps or open head lights' although I don't know if that term was in widespread use by signalmen on the GNR/LNER or if it was used by signalmen on other railways or B.R. regions?.

[john coffin]

Just a note, Tim, I was referring to the postcards from F Moore of the period which were painted, not colourised, nor
colour photography. One hopes that Mr Moore and his company were reasonable prototypical.

Paul