Brush type 2s & 4s

[Mickey]

In response to Mickey's comment about the GWR 47 diesels staying on GWR territory, I have somewhere amongst my negatives an image of one of the Stars standing outside Aviemore North signal box in 1979.

To be honest neilgow in 1969 I recall the named Brush type 4 Atlas D1515 (47 416) turned up working south through Hatfield on a oil train (the large oil tankers) and in fact around that same time I recall seeing that same loco passing through Welwyn Garden City again on possibly the same oil train?. Also I have a vague feeling I saw Orion D1566 (47 449) on the southern end of the ECML but I am not 100% certain about that?.

When it comes to the named Brush type 4s I only mean the official names that the Brush type 4s received by B.R. that were allocated to some of the 1600 series type 4s because personally I DON'T RECOGNISE the 'unofficially named locos' that were given 'silly names' by loco spotters (gricers) how they got away with that is baffling??.

I visited Paddington station in August 1970 and it was a totally 'mind blowing' experience watching the 'multi-coloured' livered diesel-hydraulic Westerns and blue livered diesel-hydraulic Warships that were around the station that day and on it's station approaches plus I also saw a number of Western region Brush type 4s that we never saw on the Eastern region including North Star, George Jackson Churchward, Sir Daniel Gooch & Isambard Kingdom Brunel totally mind blowing!!.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey I do remember the Class 24 being in the two tone green after first o/haul,this was the D503x series from 32B(Ipswich) sighted late evening with the up Harwich Ferry Vans to Bishopgate,The type 4's looked v.nice in two tone green, a bit of class,thanks to the design consultants advice (haresnape)?the blue wth full yellow ends ummm,I know the safety issue but why not a powerful headlight like most countries?, I also liked the grey raised trim as on the "toffee apples" instead of the later cream on the 31's,cant think of anyone wearing a blue suit with a yellow tie maybe "trigger"?not a recipe to gain a future partner on a first night.(think I loaded this all already it may repeat or did I clear it?)

[Mickey]

blue wth full yellow ends ummm,I know the safety issue but why not a powerful headlight like most countries?,

To be honest jj I'm not struck on those powerful loco headlights that some current day class 66s have fitted they're 'blinding' to look at especially at night because I have to turn my head away from looking at them as those trains that are fitted with them (only a few) approach me because they must have something in the order of a MILLION candle power of light!!.

I read 5 or 6 years ago of a train driver who was complaining about 'being momentarily blinded' by other trains approaching his train at night with one of those high powered headlights and the H&S were going to look into it but those powerful loco headlights are still around.

[Mickey]

The English Electric type 3 or the latter day class 37s (the gricers call them 'tractors' apparently because they sound like a farmers tractor?) I don't like them much anymore a handful are still knocking around on those damn yellow Derby track recorder trains. When I first saw them in green B.R. livery with the B.R. lion & wheel emblem at Liverpool street circa 1970 they were a novelty a bit like a scaled down English Electric type 4 (or 'whistler' to gricers) but these days those EE type 3s get up my nose wearing those stupid liveries. When one runs in daylight hours usually 5 or 6 guys with cameras in there 50s & 60s show up where I am frothing at the mouth it's a joke.

[StevieG]

Just one little 'tit-bit' regarding those 'Western' 47s mickey.
Memorably, on a number of occasions during my '74 -'77 time in KX Control, the buff-coloured card for 47086 "Colossus" could be seen on our 'Traction in area / status' board as en route to the KX Division &/or working from/to us on the ECML, which stuck out like a sore thumb owing to its low-ish '47xxx' number as well as the card colour.
Don't recall ever being aware of any others of that group of 'namers' on the patch during that period.

[Mickey]

Those officially named B.R.47s Stevie were very rarely if ever seen on the Eastern region in the 1960s & 1970s apart from the one that I previously mentioned Atlas the one that I saw and the one that you mentioned as well Stevie Colossus.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey the EEtype3 a rare bird @ the"x",apart from the Sheffield trains that I think would be Darnell (41A) allocated.the "Street" a whole different ball game, 250hp less than the EEtype 4's made little difference to top speed, but accleration from stops/checks was v.fast,&most of the locomotive turns covered by them on the GE incl. the Kings Lynn trains,the Harwich/Parkeston Quay turns could always turn up a surprise just like with the odd Brush2...(41A ) & some South Wales allocated 68xx/69xx laying over @ Parkeston ex. Freightliners, put to good use & appearing @ the "Street" late evening, wonder if the "mother "region knew of these workings?& gained anything from this inter-regional use apart from a full tank of fuel on Departure from Parkeston for their home turns.

[Hatfield Shed]

...The type 4's looked v.nice in two tone green, a bit of class,thanks to the design consultants advice ...

From a purely railway passenger perspective, I was very struck by the Brush 4 when it appeared. Compared to the bulky, lumbering and messy Derby and EE type 4's, here was a machine that clearly had received some high grade external styling attention, neat, purposeful and almost dainty in appearance. Though not quite as exciting as the EE 5 with its wondrous sound effects and race car windscreen styling that told you 'made to go fast'...

[rockinjohn]

Hi Hatfield, I was thinking you might buy into my comments with your all round knowledge,on sheds borrowing locos in interegional diesel days, was their some kind of points/credits/voucher system awarded to the locos home shed? may have been different when "area " allocation embraced a few m sheds,not counting ex. works with running sheds alongside (5A)example, after rectification or running in(mild) duties before home shed return,I know something on these lines occured in steam days with sheds "demanding"the return of their locos after contacting "control" because they were lost?not withstanding locos laying over on weekends eg.. ex Temple Mills yard K1's(31B) used on the Clactons in the Summer Weekends/or Brent(midland) yards using Southern locos on short turns awaiting their return to either Hither Green of Feltham.jj

[Mickey]

I know something on these lines occured in steam days with sheds "demanding"the return of their locos after contacting "control" because they were lost?not withstanding locos laying over on weekends eg.. ex Temple Mills yard K1's(31B) used on the Clactons in the Summer Weekends/or Brent(midland) yards using Southern locos on short turns awaiting their return to either Hither Green of Feltham.jj

That was mentioned on a dvd I watched about Eastern region steam for example a Cambridge or Norwich loco would develop a fault after working up to London on a Friday and would supposedly be on Stratford shed all weekend being repaired and was then returned back to it's home shed on a Monday morning after a quick run down to Clacton or Harwich and back with a train on the Saturday!.

I remember when some of our Eastern region Brush 2s were transferred over to the Western region at Old Oak Common back in 1970 when the type 3 Hymeks were starting to be withdrawn.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey yes OOC(81A) had the brush type2 incl a "toffee apple(which did a lot of Parcel workings),intresting point those Hymeks were a good reliable loco until....shades of the 9F saga pushed on to replacements for Castle & @ times King! duties with 14 or 16 on to South Wales or the West Country & thrashed accordingly to cover the duty allotted, with crews pushing them to their limits,but they could have lasted, I know "any" &"all"hydraulics had to go because of the workings into the Midlands, inturn being replaced by lots of Brush type4's which may have been Political move @ a higher level.

[Hatfield Shed]

Hi Hatfield, I was thinking you might buy into my comments with your all round knowledge,on sheds borrowing locos in interegional diesel days, was their some kind of points/credits/voucher system awarded to the locos home shed? ...

I know very little detail about operational matters with diesel and electric traction. What I heard both said and read in an engineering context, was that the modern traction fleet required much tighter management discipline than had been the case with steam: because there were fewer traction units, they were necessarily diagrammed much more intensively in order to make economic use of the investment, and the servicing requirements had to be closely adhered to for safe and extremely reliable operation. Out with the 'rough and tumble' and possibility of improvisation that the steam loco had provided, and in with practise that I recognised as very similar to that in high tech manufacturing engineering plant that I was familiar with.

...I know "any" &"all"hydraulics had to go because of the workings into the Midlands, in turn being replaced by lots of Brush type4's which may have been Political move @ a higher level.

BR was struggling for sufficient adequately technically qualified engineering staff at the time, and one obvious move was to reduce the skills set required to maintain BR's fleet. Electric traction was clearly the future, so why have two drive systems with trained engineers and fitters for both? Simplification by standardising on one drive system was the obvious way forward at the time.

[rockinjohn]

Thnks for reply so by this time its all down to CAP. EXP.with little/no region & allocation relevant I suppose to costings,I was thinking more along the lines of a punch card system? as in steam /early diesel days etc. didn't someone mention a buff card, did this I wonder indicate region/shed of a strange out of area loco's arrival? And I still think like the Standards&Western region steam shunting locos,the Diesel Hydraulics a dreadful waste of cap.exp.jj

[Mickey]

I thought the blue livered Brush 2s (class 31s) looked alright working in and out of Paddington even though they weren't a natural western region diesel loco although you couldn't imagine them working on the southern region in and out of Waterloo somehow?.

The same with some steam locos the 9Fs didn't look right working on southern metals although I believe I read that a couple of 9Fs were allocated to Eastleigh or somewhere on the southern and that was it.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey, Eastleigh 9F's allocated? if they were, not that many, maybe to cover inbound failures?, would have been for the Fawley Oil tank workings,lots of 9F Midland vistors some staying for a visit to the works,now can you clarify please did the Brush type2 ever appear in two tone green,as I think you mentioned it?I could be wrong,I think the BR derby sulzer 2's the first locos I ever saw in "true"two tone when new 75/76xx apart from the Ipswich based 9 or 10 503x members.